2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

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Nell
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by Nell »

Imp-Chan wrote: I'm not sure that would be a correct assumption. Sure, arguably the only reason anyone does anything is to get something they want... but even if we accept that as truth, there's no reason to expect that "godlike power" was the only thing she ever wanted, or even something she truly DID want (as opposed to actually wanting the results that she thought/assumed it would give her). Want is a complex concept, it's not so simple as just "accomplish goal A, game over." She's already demonstrated that she also seeks out relationships, and that alone should serve as enough of a driving desire to get her to treat people as people. Loneliness doesn't go away just because you understand exactly what's causing it.
If she wants something, she has the power to get it without help (or even effort) now. The only exception I can think of is Ian and that's only because he's a demigod too. After goal A, B to Z should be child's play for a god.

Imp-Chan wrote:Oh. Guess we probably ought to cancel the two sequels that address that, huh?


^-^'
Do those sequels feature Meji extensively as a main character like in ES or just have her work behind the scenes?

Also, if anything, the whole reason Meji embarked in this whole journey is...her not wanting to even have to get a job. Poor girl -_-
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Itterind
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by Itterind »

ChunLing wrote:I'll agree with mindstalk that it is to be hoped that most of you never aquire god-like power, given what you seem to think is the perfectly natural response to it.

On the other hand, I'm not big on hoping things.
You're probably including me in this comment, so I just wish to once again express that my observations are primarily Meji-specific, rather than humanity-specific. HER reaction is somewhat natural and we'd see some of this in others as well, but most people would be more respectful of other lifeforms (I'm not sure about Poe himself ^^, on one hand the two are both cynical versions, but there are good specific reasons for it).
The cynical appraisal of me and other readers may not extend to how we would wish to hold (not wield) such power ourselves. Certainly it is true one's view of others is colored by one's own qualities, but I think this is often exaggerated.
At any rate if I was in Meji's position all I would do is try to stop Ian while minimizing collateral then try to understand myself before helping others carefully like the Culture in M. Banks' novels (though personally I'd do more than them eventually, but they've got a good idea with being so off-hands which is well suited for a lack of understanding others perfectly, let alone oneself).

All in all I do believe it'd be best if neither Ian or Meji had god-like power until some time from now when Meji can begin to seed life, but without Meji the elves are dead for sure. Perhaps the cost of saving them will be immense but I believe its better to try at a cost then simply let destruction reign.

ChunLing wrote:I'm not going to suggest that Tsuirakuens generally or this guy particularly have a moral or mental leg up on, say, Patriarch Jeramel and friends.

On the other hand, Meji really doesn't seem to have any reason for doing what she's doing right now other than to bully something that she fully admits should be beneath her contempt.

And what is with the "she has been put down a lot and her life has been harder than most kids in her age/generation" meme? It might just be that I don't understand the sorrows of the economically privileged living in permissive societies, who are totally shocked and horrified by learning (as teens) that there are people who would like to kill them just because of their parentage (and not because they are, say, evil mage types). But I'm almost certain that most people in the Errantverse had things a lot harder growing up than Meji did. Most Tsuirakuens, even, who did not have an uber-wealthy grampa to threaten to cut them off financially.

Yes, she has some innate character defects that have given her life more drama than it otherwise might have had, and not all of those character defects are totally her fault. I wouldn't trade my dad for hers (and that's saying something) and her mom is...just not that wholesome an influence. Maybe not as horrific as Ian's mom, come to think of it, and really nobody we've seen thus far in the story seems to have an ideal parental situation, but...okay, Meji's mom seems about par for the course from what we've seen.
I don't think Meji has been an evil mage. All she's done is kill people who planned to rob, rape and potentially kill her. She's the only one who raised half an objection when they wasted those bandits rather than turn them in. She's shown little inclination towards spontaneous altruism, but neither has she as far as I can remember been actively vicious.

As for her upbringing having been far from ideal. Yes, you are correct that many people have had it worse and that at no rate does such history serve as a moral excuse for any ill actions, but it does help explain why.
---

Looking at her family again, not related to the above, but I want to explain why I think she's had such a hard time.

Her dad was never present and wanted to kill her. Her mom was the town's upper-class slut and ignored her (until recently). She was in a unique situation at school that would make friendships (though I admit the curiosity can help) harder to acquire and victim-hood from bullying more likely. She was given an academic curriculum far above the maturity of her age.
On the plus side she was unique and rich, though this also served to set her further apart from others.

I suppose I can't properly relate to most of her difficulties properly (except from being rather different, and witnessing Asian teens being studied to death here in Hong Kong and over in Japan) so maybe I'm assigning too much trauma to her, but I still believe sympathy for her situation is charitable.
---

Is her behavior good? No, she's broken into a teacher's office and ruined his stuff while being rather rude.
Do I understand why she does so? Yes. Do I approve of it? No, but I think that unlike Ian she is approachable and should be dealt with through love and understanding rather than condemnation/military action.

What none of us can relate with for sure is being bombarded with millennial if not millions of years of knowledge and power and what-not. I think its fair to give her some time to cool down.

What then, when she is calm?
I do not think she will be actively altruistic for a long while yet, nor that she will ever be so very much (though I do expect those traits to grow stronger). I merely expect her to stop Ian, try not to cause too much damage and carefully bring life where she can.
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ChunLing
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by ChunLing »

Itterind wrote:Do I understand why she does so? Yes. Do I approve of it? No, but I think that unlike Ian she is approachable and should be dealt with through love and understanding rather than condemnation/military action.
Okay, we've collected some evidence on the effects of approaching Ian with condemnation and military action versus...well, at least talking to him. The score is pretty clear on this one. You might think that attacking him rather talking to him is a great idea, but then again so do the elves and the Luminositans. So...if you're saying that we should approach Ian with condemnation/military action, and should approach Meji with love and understanding, I'm thinking that it is a hell of a lot safer to do the exact opposite of what you say we should on general principles.

Look, I get that those who think Meji is absolutely beyond reproach in any way and Ian is evil incarnate don't really care much for looking at the evidence. But...you might as well realize that the rest of us do. You may not think that Meji is an evil mage type (specifically a "scary little devil girl")...but she does, and she's not shy about saying so or acting the part whenever she thinks she can get away with it.

Oh...which pretty much includes from now until she burns out her powers in frivolous and highly destructive ways.
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Itterind
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by Itterind »

ChunLing wrote:So if... I'm thinking that it is a hell of a lot safer to do the exact opposite of what you say we should on general principles.
Likewise, but I'd appreciate it if you actually read everything I post rather. I don't know why, perhaps its skimming over my posts or my ADHD, but you seem to be missing very large parst of my posts in this thread.
Okay, we've collected some evidence on the effects of approaching Ian with condemnation and military action versus...well, at least talking to him.
- Plenty of people have tried to talk Ian down. It hasn't worked, he either runs off, keeps killing, healing or blowing up. Trying to kill him appeared to get close to working a couple of times. I don't think it should be the first avenue of action, but by now its crystal clear he needs to die before he can complete his ethnic cleansing.
Look, I get that those who think Meji is absolutely beyond reproach in any way...
- No-one in the whole thread has aquitted Meji of anything (though some do seem too not share my grave concern), and if you would go through my posts in this thread alone I have very many times mentioned that I see very many negative aspects of Meji, some of which are bound to lead to large numbers of death and destruction. My clearly stated opinion is that she is a necessary counterbalance to Ian and a potential seed for new forms of life and accelerated progress.
If you've read threads I've posted in prior to this thread you would have noted a great deal of sympathy for Ian and that I even understand and agree to a certain level with his goal of destroying the elves, that he has a right to choose such a dark path by claims of vengeance and protecting his race/species. However he is a loose cannon and the elves still have a right to defend themselves and I therefore believe he must be stopped as the Elven High Commander said to Sarine when she still wanted to negotiate with him.[/i]
But...you might as well realize that the rest of us do. You may not think that Meji is an evil mage type (specifically a "scary little devil girl")...but she does, and she's not shy about saying so or acting the part whenever she thinks she can get away with it.
- She's never said so. She merely ignores Jon when he refers to her as such. Meji does admit to wanting godly power and bullying people who make her life hard, but this does not make her an evil mage, vague 'type/category' or not, it makes her a childish wannabe bully, or a real bully now for busting up the professor's room even though its understandable how she's been psychologically stressed out. Her behavior right now is bad as I've pointed out earlier but I'm waiting for her to deal with people whom she does not carry baggage against (even if its not their fault) to judge more deeply what kind of person she is.
... and Ian is evil incarnate don't really care much for looking at the evidence. But...you might as well realize that the rest of us do.
- Once again, it'd be helpful if you'd actually read my posts (my posts on Ian are far away in past threads, however my view on Meji are right here, in multiple posts) rather than doing almost the exact thing you describe. Perhaps I was being too pressing with my opinions, however it is just as pressing, if not more, when several of you refer to many of us as hypothetically being awful people if given enormous power.
So to simplify a bit me and some others here have been of the opinion that Meji isn't such an awful god-like person yet and that she might go on to do some good (though I personally think it will come at a high price, though I'd accept it), compared to Ian who's attempting to continue his mass murder (and this was not expressed in this thread, but I have much sympathy for him, but he must be stopped). Meji has openly told Ian to cool it and talk to people rather than kill them all, something he rejected and called her spoiled and not a real half-elf for saying. Personally I also believe she will do bad things, but I do not think that her moral reasons leading to such disasters will be as warped.
Making somewhat pressing opinions about the above after someone says we'd all make horrible god-like people is not denying any evidence at all. I don't think you and others are denying any evidence of Meji, merely that you are ignoring the many shades of opinion of me (and others) which naturally produces a disjointed view of our views. I think the above observation of us ignoring all evidence to worship Meji (which none have done) is untrue and that rather all evidence of color is being ignored in favor of anyone thinking Meji isn't a horrible person or well on the way to being a horrible person is blind and a potentially horrible person given enough power.
Oh...which pretty much includes from now until she burns out her powers in frivolous and highly destructive ways.
We'll see. Personally I do not think her power will burn out as fast as Ians does. For sure there will be destruction and frivolous activities among others, but I do not think she will seek to harm people.


Anyway, there is a very good chance that perhaps I am getting too defensive though I also note that I feel the comments made regarding the use of mental faculties and potential hypothetical morality (if ascended) when I and others made comments were very and deeply unfair as well as greatly ironic... therefore this will be my last post in this thread and if anyone wishes to let me know something they can PM me or post in the 'Meji's Scruples Archived Links/Discussion' thread I am currently constructing (it'll take a while though).
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ChunLing
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by ChunLing »

Look, I'm not claiming that I wouldn't do terrible things with god-like power.

I'm with Sara, "Give me that power and I swear, I'll kill every last elf in the world myself."

I'm just saying that, if you think that Meji is to going to be all goodness and light with that kind of power, then you either haven't bothered to read pretty much any of the story thus far or, perhaps, you are likely blind to the flaws in her moral outlook because you share most or all of them.
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Nell
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by Nell »

Itterind wrote:
But...you might as well realize that the rest of us do. You may not think that Meji is an evil mage type (specifically a "scary little devil girl")...but she does, and she's not shy about saying so or acting the part whenever she thinks she can get away with it.
- She's never said so. She merely ignores Jon when he refers to her as such. Meji does admit to wanting godly power and bullying people who make her life hard, but this does not make her an evil mage, vague 'type/category' or not, it makes her a childish wannabe bully, or a real bully now for busting up the professor's room even though its understandable how she's been psychologically stressed out. Her behavior right now is bad as I've pointed out earlier but I'm waiting for her to deal with people whom she does not carry baggage against (even if its not their fault) to judge more deeply what kind of person she is.
http://www.errantstory.com/2003-03-03/66

It's all up to whether or not you think she's much different now.
I've come to realize, Meji doesn't show much of her true colours on much of the story, and she's got us arguing over what she does or doesn't care about as a result. We know she has wanted 1) godhood/graduation 2) Ian's dick (maybe not anymore).
Who does she care about? What does she care about past that? If you can tell me it'd be quite helpful.
And while we're at it, who is Meji? She's been in the background a LOT now that I think about it.
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Flintlock
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by Flintlock »

Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Imp-Chan wrote:Oh. Guess we probably ought to cancel the two sequels that address that, huh?

^-^'
Yeah, people just don't truly appreciate the potential storylines that can come from combining a young virgin raised on japanese style erotic visual novels and the magical power to create and manipulate lifeforms.

Oh how I'm looking forward to the sequels yet to come.
I thought the bathroom wall ascertained that Meji was not a virgin?
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by Michael Poe »

Now really, do you trust strangers who deface bathrooms?

Personally, I always have to fight not to whip out a red sharpie and correct their grammar.

^-^'

Edit: This is still Impy, still apparently using Poe's account even though I thought I'd logged in.
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ChunLing
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by ChunLing »

I thought the implication there was that Meji was the one who did that.

Although I'm quite sure she's pretty strange, I don't know that she counts as a stranger.

Still don't trust her, though.
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Nell
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Re: 2010-09-02: What the Hell Am I Even Saying?

Post by Nell »

'-' Yukkiri trusts strangers that deface bathrooms though...
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