2011-06-23: Offer

[ChunLing]

Look, I have to respect Slamlander's ethical position. If people are shitting on others "just because they can", then it is perfectly ethical to do whatever you can do right back. Whatever you can do...even sticking them in ovens. It may not be moral, but it is perfectly ethical.

And let's face it, there are a lot of goofs around that do bad things "just because they can".

At the same time, 4-chan does exercise at least some restraint in what they do as a community. Not, perhaps, as much as they 'should' by any given person's standards, but I wouldn't lump all of them in as the kind that do stuff "just because they can". They don't do a lot of things they can't do because they can't do them, but there are other things that they don't do that they probably could. Mostly this is probably because they are lazy. But I bet sometimes they could do something and don't because they think it might be wrong.

That doesn't make them heroes of justice or anything. If they run around defacing other people's property, then I don't care about whether they have any good reason for doing it, those people have a natural right to strike back however they can even if they are completely in the wrong. That's why we have things like war crimes, and yet they don't apply to "shooting at the good guys", only to "attacking innocent bystanders". Real good guys recognize that the bad guys have a right to shoot back. If you don't recognize the right of the bad guys to shoot at you, then you aren't a good guy.

Whoever is the good guys and bad guys in any particular scenario doesn't matter. Saying that the guy whose job it is to defend something has no 'right' to target the attackers is a dick move.

4chan gets that not everybody likes them. That's kinda their whole point, even. Getting in someone's face for pointing out that not everyone likes 4chan would be like getting in Imp-chan's face over certain words that she doesn't like. It is not cool.

As for Anita...what the (*%^ (*%&ing )(IY* is she supposed to do, turn her ()*& %&*) back on Sarine and hope she runs away and cries about being rejected?

Anita doesn't know much about Sarine, but she can guess some things. First, she can guess that Sarine has an interest in Jon and Sara. Second, she can guess that Sarine might therefore be a better source of information than either Amraphel (this would not be a hard guess even without the self-introduction). And third, she can probably sense that Sarine isn't about to take "no" for an answer to the offer of a duel.

So, she is adapting her improvised interrogation pattern. She'll let Paul continue talking to the Amraphels and hope that they care whether Sarine lives or dies. She'll go talk to Sarine. Anita does seem to understand that she is not in total control of the situation here, her options are limited to "talk" and "kill" and she doesn't fully control which she gets to do to whom.

Sara might have been unfamiliar with the concept of dispel traps (despite them being in common use by Veracia), Anita knows perfectly well about both wards and traps, and probably gets that a skilled elven mage could combine the two. That's not the only reason that she's choosing "talk" over kill, but it does make talking to Sarine the right choice.

[Viking-Sensei]

While I fully support Slamlander is his criticism of the few, to put it bluntly, he slammed a large group of people for the actions of a few, which does nothing except make him look ignorant. Also, statements like "I'm being nice and civil here; take that as a hint." should really only come from Impy, myself, or one of the members of the admin council. We don't use our power often and try to let you guys have free reign, but that's what we're here for. If you have a concern, take it to us. That's why there's that little "Report This Post" button on each and every post.

Now, to the second half of this mess... It's when we lose that distinction between broad labels and specific actions that we leave ourselves open for evil in our own actions - and I think that's what Rakshasa Taisab was trying to say (albeit less diplomatically). There's a lot of good (relatively speaking) people who hang on or around 4chan who are not hackers, not Anonymous, not Lulzsec, and are honestly as sick or even more sick of them than the rest of the non-4chan-inhabiting world are. Unfortunately, the gruff and provocative manner of Rakshasa's response caused his intention - pointing out that 4chan boards like /hr/ are not to blame and not deserving of hate - to be completely lost under a pro-vs-con about hackers.

I expect better of you guys. Errant Story is supposed to be the *easy* board.

Let's all move past this - I've never had to lock a topic before, but if this keeps going I will. If you have any issues with what I said, take it up with me in PM, but let's keep it off the board.

[Alberich]

How stupid, how egocentric do you have to be to accept a duel with an unknown quantity who's goading you into it? Maybe radiation from Ian has rotted her brain...

Thinking this over - just as the Ensigerum has kept a degraded form of the Elf language, they may also have kept some form of the elves' duelling code. We don't know very much about that, but it may carry a lot of weight with them. Whatever "warrior culture" the Ensigerum have - Anita got where she is by excelling in it, and shouldn't be expected to drop it even now. (It would be like expecting politicians to get elected and then not act like politicians...) They've never had a reason to drop any part of it, because they've never been up against enemies who had the means or the knowledge to use it against them. That would explain Sarine's reason for making the gamble - she knows how the Ensigerum learned it long ago, but doesn't know how much of the code they've kept. Double gamble - that they still have a code she can exploit, and that they'd accept her as an opponent who could make a valid challenge.

Sarine's fight with her friend before was explicitly not by the rules - and apparently one of them was to use durus flammas - that may shorten this one a bit. I suppose we'll finally get to see why Sarine says Anita's favored two-blade-sword-thingy is such a bad weapon. (Whether magic is allowed in formal duels - I suppose we'll learn that too.)

For most of this story, Anita's choices have been ruthless and risky, but also logical and - in an awful way - practical. Previously, the Ensigerum survived in a world where the major powers were arrogant empires, and they survived by being attached to the biggest power around. When Ian popped Luminosita, the dynamics changed a lot, and Anita saw that as Paul did not - there was a chance to wipe out the remaining arrogant power completely, leaving a world that's actually safer for the Ensigerum - where they might even be able to expand beyond a single village, perhaps carve out a little country of their own. I can't easily write off her choices as stupid.

[Ori Klein]

Viking Sensei, as the pair seem incapable of implementing Imp Chan's instructions and for sake of this thread, may I suggest splitting their messages off the topic onto a new one over at the appropriate board?


I'm not going to guess at what goes next, as it really boils down to "who will live and who will die" and this can result in any number of combinations.
Also, I find no base to underestimate Paul's abilities. I do not recall seeing evidence that suggests him either a strong or a weak fighter. For all we know him and Anita are the equivalent of Yoda and Mace-Windu. On the other hand, Anita may be a strong fighter and Paul is just a networking bureaucrat with mediocre abilities. Having said that, if to rely upon Paul's display to date it will be uncharacteristic of him to flee, he will undoubtedly engage. However, he may offer a temporary cease fire as the fighting progresses as a resolution that will end the hostility in a manner that allows all the currently-living participators to retain such state.

[eee]

As for Anita...what the (*%^ (*%&ing )(IY* is she supposed to do, turn her ()*& %&*) back on Sarine and hope she runs away and cries about being rejected?

Anita doesn't know much about Sarine, but she can guess some things. First, she can guess that Sarine has an interest in Jon and Sara. Second, she can guess that Sarine might therefore be a better source of information than either Amraphel (this would not be a hard guess even without the self-introduction). And third, she can probably sense that Sarine isn't about to take "no" for an answer to the offer of a duel.

So, she is adapting her improvised interrogation pattern. She'll let Paul continue talking to the Amraphels and hope that they care whether Sarine lives or dies. She'll go talk to Sarine. Anita does seem to understand that she is not in total control of the situation here, her options are limited to "talk" and "kill" and she doesn't fully control which she gets to do to whom.

Sara might have been unfamiliar with the concept of dispel traps (despite them being in common use by Veracia), Anita knows perfectly well about both wards and traps, and probably gets that a skilled elven mage could combine the two. That's not the only reason that she's choosing "talk" over kill, but it does make talking to Sarine the right choice.

What could Anita do aside from accepting Sarine's challenge?

A) Run (it's now 3-2, with Sarine's capacities unknown and her actions suggesting trap or distraction while other forces move in)
B) Surrender
C) Accelerate, get behind Jon, put a blade to his throat, decelerate, and suggest Sarine drop all her weapons and put her hands on her head unless she likes seeing blood spurt.
D) Accelerate, get behind Sarine instead, and stab or hamstring her.
E) Ask Sarine if she's the leader of the Elves and if they can negotiate a disengagement until Ian gets back, explaining that while the Ensigerum has no love of Elves Ian was forcing them to help him kill them, and if he's not around there's no reason to keep fighting. And if he DOESN'T come back, and the energy barrier remains intact, they'll all stuck together with no way (that she knows of) out...
F) Kill Jon, kill Sara, turn to Sarine and say "You were saying?"
G) Send Paul to fight Sarine while she took out Jon and Sara.
H) Variation of G), tell Sara she'll be accepted back in the Ensigerum if SHE fights Sarine and wins. Anita, after all, has no idea what the relations are between Sara and Sarine, for all she knows the initiate might leap at the opportunity... And it would certainly distract Sarine...
I) Sneer at Sarine's offer, ask if it looks like she (Anita) just fell off the turnip cart, and what else has she got? I'm willing to give credit to the idea that the Ensigerum, having started off as warriors, still retain a warrior code like Bushido, and that Sarine's challenge carried weight; but on the other hand, they're assassins now. Have been for a LONG, LONG time. Assassins tend to be practical, and fighting Sarine isn't.
J) Lie. Mess with Sarine's mind. Tell her she knows the Elves were planning to attack and exterminate the Ensigerum as they've done with the Half-Elves, this is already a fight to the death, and why should she give Sarine the time of day? That would confuse things enough that Anita might have a much greater chance of getting information out of Sarine (as she tried to convince Anita she was wrong) than hoping Sarine is a chatterbox while fighting a death duel.

I still don't get this 'challenge to a fight to the death as an interrogation technique' idea. First, who really expects someone fighting for their life to talk, or say anything useful if they do? Look at Sarine and Sarna's fight: Yes, they talked a lot (did anyone expect Sarna to keep quiet?), more before Sarna issued her challenge than after, but what did either of them get out of it? For Sarine, all she found out was Sarna had subordinates who can't follow orders, her boomerang electrified knife trick works, and it REALLY sucks to kill your best friend. For Sarna, all SHE got was that Sarine had confidence in her friends, and even old elves can come up with new tricks. AND, when they've had their skills honed by recent fights with other Elves, humans, and Ensigerum, they can be better than Elves who've been mainly assassins. And that's another problem for Anita: She may be the best fighter the Ensigerum have ever had. Winner of dozens of fights, practice and real. But for the past few years, she's been a desk jockey. Even if she's practiced and trained when she could, I doubt she's at her best. And she's what, 40-45? Going up against an Elf who has almost 3000 years combat experience and training. Her odds are VERY bad, if it comes down to skill to skill... Anita has made a series of bad decisions due to her ambition, lack of people skills (remember how she managed to antagonize the head of the Church by telling him hard truths in a very hard way? Diplomacy is persuading people to do what you want by convincing them it's actually what they want), and inability to consider the possible consequences of her actions; I suspect she's just made a final one.

[ChunLing]

I think that, in Anita's position, I'd rank turning my back on Sarine and hoping she is emotionally crushed by the implicit rejection as being a smarter move than anything you suggested.

Actually, stripping naked and lighting herself on fire would probably work better than some of those suggestions. I hope that you're pointing out that Anita has many worse options than fighting Sarine...but your harping on Anita's record of bad decisions makes me wonder. Exactly who that we know in the Errantverse has been making better decisions?

Anita thinks she might have screwed things up with the Veracians, but the fact is that she didn't. She just further exposed how worthless maintaining a relationship with them in the first place was. "Diplomacy" always played to the Veracians strengths against one of the Ensigerium's outstanding weaknesses, ever dealing with them in any other way than with a knife to their leader's throat was a mistake, and it wasn't Anita that made that mistake in the first place (nor was it Paul, to be fair). I do have to say that Anita's decision to continue to trust Paul is potentially suspect...if she has not in fact made sure that he will die the moment he directly betrays her, but aside from that she has been fairly shrewd compared to most of the other characters.

[throwrug]

I don't see what the complaints against Anita are, we don't know the terms of the duel yet.
All Anita has agreed to do is fight Sarine, but presumably Sarine would have entered the fray, and she would have to fight her anyway.
It's reasonable for Anita to suspect that Sarine has ways around time magic, therefore if she can get Sarine to forgo tricks in echange for her forgoing time magic, it's not unreasonable to think she could take her in a straight-up fight. It can only go one of a few ways:

1.) Anita can beat Sarine in a straight up fight.
2.) Anita can't win, and resorts to time magic, which Sarine (having agreed to an honorable fight) may not have defenses against.
3.) Anita uses time magic and Sarine DOES have defenses, this is the worst case scenario, and it's exactly what Anita is facing now.

If we assume not-fighting isn't an option, accepting the duel gives her a chance for a more favorable fight.

[ChunLing]

I'm guessing that Sarine has actually noticed that Anita is talking more than she would if she didn't want information that might not be forthcoming from a couple of corpses (however neatly minced).

Her plan probably revolves more around telling Anita (or, you know, casually letting slip) something that--true or not--would provide Anita with a compelling reason to go someplace else for a while. That beats the pants off trying to best the Imperatrix in a straight or even a rigged fight. If Sarine is counting on that counter she used on Sara working against the Imperatrix, then she probably has a nasty, major limb removing surprise coming...and I would hope she's learned enough to realize that. Then again, "elves are damnfools no matter how much XP they gain" does seem to be one of the major themes of Errant Story.

Just possibly, Sarine doesn't even know what exactly she'll tell Anita, and plans to figure out her show-stopping conversational bomb on the fly. That would be just like her.

[runic]

that smile on sarine's face is cause for concern. For Anita.

[ChunLing]

Only if Anita is desperate to save what's left of the elven race. Typically, Sarine smiling like that has meant that she had some brilliant plan to "save her people"....

She's somehow going to end up telling Anita where the warp-gate is, isn't she?