2012-02-20: Coming Home

For talking about the plot, the art, the dialogue, the characters, the site, and the individual updates...
raphfrk
Forum Regular
Posts: 86
Joined: May 31st, 2010, 8:23 am

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by raphfrk »

Forrest wrote:now that Veracia and Pedonubile Asstu are gone.
Veracia are certainly damaged but they aren't "gone". Tsuiraku is the world "hyper-power" (as the French call the US) but Veracia is still significant. It is probably like China/US (esp since Veracia has a much higher population, even if lower average wealth). The elves are vastly weaker than they were. Not only have they lost a large portion of their population and had their capital (and only city) ruined, but they also lost a lot of their mystique. They are not longer an unknown quantity.
User avatar
Madayar
Forum Regular
Posts: 64
Joined: May 16th, 2011, 5:15 am
Twitter @: Madayar
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Madayar »

If it's the gateway to the north, and that is my point, it's strategically the most likely to be attacked in a war of a Northern Empire against Tsuiraku, unless it gets REALLY protected, significant culturally or economically important for all around. If history shows anything, and tactics dictate anything, cutting off the entryway quickly is a major blow against any nation, no matter how dominant it might be, it will be significally slowed. The elves would be able to attack the town unless somebody who's undefeatable for them, like a very powerful academy, would be situated there. A gate wouldn't stop a dictator 100 years in the future. Meiji would. The fact that she would retaliate on attacks towards Santuariel will weigh much more than anything.

Whatever, let's just say Santuariel will most likely profit from the gate right now, and Tsuiraku will, too. In the long run that should be a splendid way to improve living quality in it.
"Writers live in the worlds of books they've not yet written."
Rakshasa Taisab
Mage/Priest War Veteran
Posts: 378
Joined: January 23rd, 2009, 11:22 am
Location: 四ッ谷, Tokyo

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Rakshasa Taisab »

Madayar wrote:If it's the gateway to the north, and that is my point, it's strategically the most likely to be attacked in a war of a Northern Empire against Tsuiraku, unless it gets REALLY protected, significant culturally or economically important for all around. If history shows anything, and tactics dictate anything, cutting off the entryway quickly is a major blow against any nation, no matter how dominant it might be, it will be significally slowed. The elves would be able to attack the town unless somebody who's undefeatable for them, like a very powerful academy, would be situated there. A gate wouldn't stop a dictator 100 years in the future. Meiji would. The fact that she would retaliate on attacks towards Santuariel will weigh much more than anything.

Whatever, let's just say Santuariel will most likely profit from the gate right now, and Tsuiraku will, too. In the long run that should be a splendid way to improve living quality in it.
If only the half-elves of Santuariel had a way to escape in case they were surrounded by enemy forces...
User avatar
Imp-Chan
Not Yet Dead
Posts: 1407
Joined: August 10th, 2007, 11:03 am
Twitter @: ImpChan
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Contact:

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Imp-Chan »

The Northern Confederacy is not an empire. It is a loose alliance of independent city-states, and they are very unlikely to band together to start a war, if only because they'd have to let someone be in charge to do it.

^-^'
Because scary little devil girls have to stick together.
Image
User avatar
Madayar
Forum Regular
Posts: 64
Joined: May 16th, 2011, 5:15 am
Twitter @: Madayar
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Madayar »

Imp-Chan wrote:The Northern Confederacy is not an empire. It is a loose alliance of independent city-states, and they are very unlikely to band together to start a war, if only because they'd have to let someone be in charge to do it.

^-^'
Yet. Every major uprising - like Tsuiraku right now - will eventually lead to a counterbalance by those not willing to fall in line. However, it's the end of this story, anyway. And the future is far, far away.
"Writers live in the worlds of books they've not yet written."
Lurker 314
Forum Regular
Posts: 69
Joined: July 4th, 2008, 12:22 am

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Lurker 314 »

Madayar wrote:If it's the gateway to the north, and that is my point, it's strategically the most likely to be attacked in a war of a Northern Empire against Tsuiraku, unless it gets REALLY protected, significant culturally or economically important for all around.
But neither a Northern empire or Tsuiraku are the elves. From a long term point of view, the half-elves might have a problem of being associated with Tsuiraku or the elves by either a military power or social prejudice, but that's a big improvement over continuing to worry for centuries over getting wiped out all of a sudden by elven commandos. And being a gateway to the north will offer significant cultural and economic protection just by itself.

I see it likely that Santuariel will grow to become a powerful city-state within a century, possibly with a dual class society of half elf elites and humans in the working class or possibly retaining the democratic structure they currently have. A lot depends on choices that haven't yet been made.
User avatar
Forrest
Finally, some love for the BJ!
Posts: 977
Joined: August 21st, 2007, 12:49 pm
Location: The Edge of the Earth
Contact:

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Forrest »

Exactly. Santauriel has for most of its history been a lonely isolated city (when it could even claim that status) standing alone against (or rather hiding in terror from) a major world power dead-set on their obliteration.

That major world power is now more or less gone, and doing nothing else would leave them still a lonely isolated city standing alone against anyone who might find them worth taking advantage of.

Now, as Tsuiraku's portal into the Northern Confederacy, they will be built up to support that role, and they will have a powerful ally looking out for them in case anyone wants to pick a fight. They will also be a prominent target if the Northern Confederacy decides that it has a sufficient beef with Tsuiraku, but even so, that beats being weak and alone in the world, and really beats being weak and alone in the world with a major power out to destroy you. They are now merely at the slight risk of having a major power out to destroy them, with an even greater major power watching their back in case of such an event.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
User avatar
Graybeard
The Heretical Admin
Posts: 7180
Joined: August 20th, 2007, 8:26 am
Location: Nuevo Mexico y Colorado, Estados Unidos

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Graybeard »

Forrest wrote:Exactly. Santauriel has for most of its history been a lonely isolated city (when it could even claim that status) standing alone against (or rather hiding in terror from) a major world power dead-set on their obliteration.

That major world power is now more or less gone, and doing nothing else would leave them still a lonely isolated city standing alone against anyone who might find them worth taking advantage of.

Now, as Tsuiraku's portal into the Northern Confederacy, they will be built up to support that role, and they will have a powerful ally looking out for them in case anyone wants to pick a fight. They will also be a prominent target if the Northern Confederacy decides that it has a sufficient beef with Tsuiraku, but even so, that beats being weak and alone in the world, and really beats being weak and alone in the world with a major power out to destroy you. They are now merely at the slight risk of having a major power out to destroy them, with an even greater major power watching their back in case of such an event.
I'm not sure I buy that analysis.

We don't really know how populated the world of Errant Story is -- surely at least an order of magnitude less than our own -- but in ANY normal world, a population of a few thousand, as we know the elves to have had before Ian got hold of them, does not qualify as a "major power." And there are fewer of them now. The elves haven't been a "major power" in thousands of years. They just happen to be a force big enough to threaten Santuariel, which is in no way "major" itself. Yes, that threat has been rather emphatically negated, at least as long as there's a Tsuiraku and they remain interested in Santuariel (read: as long as there's a Meji). But the rest of the analysis, particularly the part about the Northern Confederacy ... not so obvious.

The wild card is that we don't have even an order-of-magnitude idea of just how big and bad the Northern Confederacy is. They could be a dozen or so small towns the size of Santuariel. They could be a ravenous proto-nation of tens of millions who simply await an Ultimate Leader to form them into a power that completely dwarfs Tsuiraku. In the former case, Santuariel is as safe as it's ever been, and the gate will do exactly what it's supposed to: keep the elves (or, for that matter, anyone else) from getting too frisk. In the latter, however, the gate becomes half juicy thaumatic morsel ripe for the picking, half casus belli that helps weld the Confederacy together to "repel" the "invaders" from Tsuiraku -- which can't be what Meji or the Tsuirakuans have in mind. Furthermore, we know the Confederacy has significant conventional military technology; Poe said so (see notes at the end of the article). And that's in addition to whatever dwarven artifacts, like the one that ventilated Endryn's informant, are still out there. Put all that in the hands of a population base significantly greater than Tsuiraku's, which the Confederacy could very well have, and Tsuiraku could wind up screwed.

The wisdom of this alliance, and the warp gate deep in Confederacy territory, is not obvious to me at all. Yes, it meets the elven threat, but that threat was a thing of the past anyway -- not that the Poe-verse has a monopoly on the practice of preparing for yesterday's war rather than tomorrow's, to be sure ...
Image

Because old is wise, does good, and above all, kicks ass.
User avatar
Madayar
Forum Regular
Posts: 64
Joined: May 16th, 2011, 5:15 am
Twitter @: Madayar
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Madayar »

Graybeard wrote: In the latter, however, the gate becomes half juicy thaumatic morsel ripe for the picking...The wisdom of this alliance, and the warp gate deep in Confederacy territory, is not obvious to me at all. Yes, it meets the elven threat, but that threat was a thing of the past anyway -- not that the Poe-verse has a monopoly on the practice of preparing for yesterday's war rather than tomorrow's, to be sure ...
Ah, somebody gets my point. Hehe. Yes, I agree with the analysis, the elves might be bayed for now, especially due to lack of reproduction and the thus heavy permanent losses. They also have no strategic point to start over from as of now, their position is known and half-elves have proven to be extremely dangerous to them. As long as they don't figure out how reproduction works again, they'll vanish sooner or later, and most likely not in a war.

The Northern Confederacy however is basically unscathed by the happenings. Meiji might not be around forever, maybe go to sleep sooner or later. Tsuiraku might get cocky now that they feel they rule the world. And a single attack of nationalists or radicals can be well enough to damage a small city - and Satuariel is by no means big - to the point that it will be given up. Becoming a token city to Tsuiraku pays off in the short run, but due to the vast distance to the actual city it can be dangerous enough. And all escape routes are solely possible through the portal - and as far as I understand it, those cannot transport all too many at once, and cannot work with dead mages, only with living ones.

However the survivors of this generation of half-elves might breathe through well enough.
"Writers live in the worlds of books they've not yet written."
User avatar
Forrest
Finally, some love for the BJ!
Posts: 977
Joined: August 21st, 2007, 12:49 pm
Location: The Edge of the Earth
Contact:

Re: 2012-02-20: Coming Home

Post by Forrest »

Graybeard wrote:We don't really know how populated the world of Errant Story is -- surely at least an order of magnitude less than our own -- but in ANY normal world, a population of a few thousand, as we know the elves to have had before Ian got hold of them, does not qualify as a "major power." And there are fewer of them now. The elves haven't been a "major power" in thousands of years.
I recall it being explicitly stated by Poe or Impy somewhere that by human standards elves are each one-man platoons. The handful who showed up in Saus to apprehend Ian were "what's left of the Elven military", and destroyed the city in the subsequent fire fight. (Yes, Ian helped with that too). So having a low population isn't much of a problem toward being a world power when your soldiers have the equivalent of assault rifles with absurd amounts of ammo, and the rest of the world has the equivalent of pointy sticks. We concede that Veracia was a world power, I assume, and the Elves were able to just march in there unannounced, make demands, and leave again, and Veracia at least didn't seem to think they could do anything about it, which would seem to put the Elves in a superior position to a world power and thus one themselves.
The wild card is that we don't have even an order-of-magnitude idea of just how big and bad the Northern Confederacy is.
We know that they were able to repel the attempted Veracian invasion. So, if we're conceding that Veracia was a world power, then that puts the Northern Confederacy on that level as well.

Now that I think about it, it seems that Veracia wasn't really as badass as it (and other humans) thought it was. Sure, it was the preeminent empire in the merely-human-rebuilt-civilization-without-the-help-of-elves world, and it conquered many of its neighbors and began establishing overseas colonies even. But that's just because Tsuiraku and the Elves were being isolationist, and the Northern Confederacy are too loosely allied to do anything aggressive. The Northern Confederacy have Dwarven tech (i.e. traditional firearms) centuries ahead of Veracia by Earth standards. Tsuiraku is basically a whole nation of half-elven mages in turn centuries ahead of them by Earth standards. And the Elves are elves, who have been living beyond modern Tsuirakuan standards for millennia already.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
Post Reply