2012-06-18: [CT] Church Censorship

[The Comment Golem]

Discussion thread for [CT] Church Censorship

[Lukkai]

But my first choice is to blame the church.

Considering how they act, actually a quite reasonable assumption.

And I didn't even remember that the whole creation story was mentioned this early in the story in that much detail. I mean, it will reappear several times all throughout the story. With some things, however, not really being mentioned again until nearly the end (Exitialis anyone?).

[Forrest]

And I didn't even remember that the whole creation story was mentioned this early in the story in that much detail. I mean, it will reappear several times all throughout the story. With some things, however, not really being mentioned again until nearly the end (Exitialis anyone?).

I've been going on about "I'm pretty sure the so-called 'gods' were actually alien races" thing this whole time. Also, Meji's list of crazy Tsuirakuan conspiracy theories, all of which turn out to be true, includes the theory that life on their planet was put there by a race of hyperintelligent alien beings. This science-fantasy link is what really got me interested in the story in the first place.

Then again I also suspected that the "gods" would turn out to have been humans, from real Earth, which would explain the baka fairies' apparent connection to contemporary Earth culture, and why the Ol' Bastard, incorporeal blob of energy that he was, would think It's Funny When They Jiggle.

Technically, this hasn't been disproven yet...

[Lukkai]

Then again I also suspected that the "gods" would turn out to have been humans, from real Earth, which would explain the baka fairies' apparent connection to contemporary Earth culture, and why the Ol' Bastard, incorporeal blob of energy that he was, would think It's Funny When They Jiggle.

Technically, this hasn't been disproven yet...

Not as far as I remember at least.

But I gotta admit that I'd find that as a background to be rather boring. Lots of the scifi around kind of suffers from that affliction that anything really good in the universe has to be connected to humans. Be it that they invented it, that they lead the races to it, that another race invented it but it is later found out those actually originated from Earth themselves and just forgot they were humans after some evolutionary changes... The list goes on. This is easily explained. We like ourselves to be the heroes of our stories after all. And it can work quite well in some environments (especially where the humans are not that much 'younger' technologically speaking than the other races, if at all). At least if it's not used too much. But there are stories out there dime a dozen where it is reeeeally far-fetched just why the humans are that great. Where the only reason it boils down too is: They're human, therefore they rock. I don't like that as a premise. It's boring.

[BloodHenge]

Personally, I'm tired of the other extreme where every alien race we meet is better at something than we are, and our biggest asset is that we don't exactly suck at anything. Consider the Star Trek universe. Vulcans are smarter and stronger, Klingons are stronger and tougher, Romulans are stronger and meaner, Cardassians are sneakier, Betazeds are more understanding, Bajorans are more spiritual... What do humans have? Apparently, our greatest strength is that we're crazy enough to try anything.

[Forrest]

I largely agree, and I'd kind of like to coin something like a scif-i analogue of the Bechdel Test: a test of sci-fi stories featuring aliens where humans aren't necessarily even featured, and if they are, the aliens are still doing things on their own that do not revolve entirely around humans. I'm not sure there's any sci-fi out there that would pass such a test.

I took this to heart in my own (very slowly in progress) sci-fi world. It is divided into three "sagas", one of which is about humans, yes, and another of which is apparently a fantasy universe featuring humans prominently, but the third (actually the first) of which is the story of an alien race who do end up having some contact with humans, and influence us greatly, and find us really kind of neat... but only in the same way that we found the coelacanth neat. For the most part, their stories involve only themselves, and interactions with a couple 'other' alien races (who are arguably extensions of their own race), and there's barely a moment when they and humans even interact at all, though we're aware of each other's existence.

The long and short of it is, they had a big galactic empire long before we crawled out of our caves. Lots of things happen in it, and I have stories all about those things, completely unrelated to humanity; they don't even know we exist. Eventually the do discover us (still in our caves), and it's an important scientific find because we're the first sapient alien life they've discovered, but then they have a catastrophe all of their own and their empire collapses back to the stone age. Their brief presence on Earth continues to influence the stories set on Earth, but meanwhile events happen back in the remains of their civilization completely unrelated to humans and they don't even remember that we exist, not even as a footnote in their ancient mythology (as the 'other' aliens become). Their civilization resurges, being just a little bit ahead of human civilization now, and a few dozen millennia later we meet briefly on close to equal footing, mistake each other for the enemy (the 'other' aliens), realize the mistake and fight side by side very briefly, then Earth gets knocked back to the stone age while another few dozen millennia of slow-paced interstellar combat occurs far away from here. Eventually Earth rises again and makes contact with the aliens once more for a brief joint effort to put a stop to things, finally ushering in an era where we can sit down and talk over tea instead of just saying hi in passing as shit explodes. But that's where I stop telling stories, so for the most part, the aliens are doing things on their own that do not remotely revolve around humans, and a third of the stories set in this universe are about those things.

[BloodHenge]

I largely agree, and I'd kind of like to coin something like a scif-i analogue of the Bechdel Test: a test of sci-fi stories featuring aliens where humans aren't necessarily even featured, and if they are, the aliens are still doing things on their own that do not revolve entirely around humans. I'm not sure there's any sci-fi out there that would pass such a test.

The Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block of Magic: The Gathering might pass. (I know it's fantasy rather than sci-fi, but a lot of people lump them together and the fan bases largely overlap.) There are a lot of humanoids, but the design team made a conscious decision not to add actual humans.

I also had an idea for a story about the first contact between two sets of aliens, but never actually got around to writing it down. Maybe someday.

[Lukkai]

Vulcans are smarter and stronger, Klingons are stronger and tougher, Romulans are stronger and meaner, Cardassians are sneakier, Betazeds are more understanding, Bajorans are more spiritual...

And yet it's (with a very few exceptions) always one or several humans saving the day. Never the other races. God forbid one of them ever achieving something of importance!

[BloodHenge]

That seems to be mostly because, among the cast of the various shows, humans outnumber everyone else. And in the original series at least, Spock rather frequently came up with the plan that ended up saving the day, even if someone else implemented it.

DS9 was probably the best about having nonhuman heroes-- largely thanks to its predominantly nonhuman cast. Dax, Kira, Odo, Quark, and even Garak have each carried entire episodes.

[mindstalk]

Then again I also suspected that the "gods" would turn out to have been humans, from real Earth, which would explain the baka fairies' apparent connection to contemporary Earth culture, and why the Ol' Bastard, incorporeal blob of energy that he was, would think It's Funny When They Jiggle.

Technically, this hasn't been disproven yet...

Not as far as I remember at least.

But I gotta admit that I'd find that as a background to be rather boring. Lots of the scifi around kind of suffers from that affliction that anything really good in the universe has to be connected to humans. Be it that they invented it, that they lead the races to it, that another race invented it but it is later found out those actually originated from Earth themselves and just forgot they were humans after some evolutionary changes... The list goes on. This is easily explained. We like ourselves to be the heroes of our stories after all. And it can work quite well in some environments (especially where the humans are not that much 'younger' technologically speaking than the other races, if at all). At least if it's not used too much. But there are stories out there dime a dozen where it is reeeeally far-fetched just why the humans are that great. Where the only reason it boils down too is: They're human, therefore they rock. I don't like that as a premise. It's boring.

But here it's not generic "really good" ness, it's specific resemblances to humanity and modern pop culture. In a sci-fi context, the 'gods' being posthumans is the simpler explanation, not human chauvinism. Conversely, aliens gods implies human breasts and schoolgirl outfits are so awesome even alien gods re-invent them. Which no.

As for the creation myth, I'd always assumed they'd stumbled on a *dwarven* record without realizing it.