2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

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2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby The Comment Golem » September 2nd, 2013, 4:00 am

Discussion thread for [CT] City Burning Contest
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby eee » September 2nd, 2013, 4:02 pm

I've always wondered what it was about Ian that set Jon off. We got a glimpse of it when he reacted so harshly to Ian's comment that his sister was sick. Now, given Jon's history, not being there when you sister needed you WOULD be a sore spot, and that might have been part of it; even though Ian's explanation made it clear he was helping her as best he could by trying to find the book. But what seems to have really iced the cake was when Ian lost it and unleashed death and fire on the Elves in Saus, no matter who got hurt in the process. Even though it was that massive destruction that enabled Jon to get Meji and both of them to get away. Is it personality, is it jealousy over Meji (protective, not romantic), is it that Ian's a mage and Jon has problems with mages? It'd be interesting to know.
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby zz1000zz » September 3rd, 2013, 3:04 am

Really? Up until Saus, Jon never had a problem with Ian. Then he shot an elf to save Ian and Meji. There was a brief pause, and he tried to get Ian to take Meji and get out, resolving the situation without further violence. Ian ignored him and attacked the elves instead. Jon joined in on the ensuing violence, killing an elf so he could escape with Meji. He then tried to get Ian to come with him. Again, Ian ignored him and attacked the elves (well, I think there was only one left at this point).

It was the fact Ian was more interested in killing elves than escaping that "set Jon off." Not only was it senseless, it put both Jon and Meji at risk. If Jon hadn't moved Meji, she would have died. And even though he did move, both he and her were still nearly killed. All because Ian wanted to kill an elf, no matter what the consequences of the fight might be.

In other words, Jon realized Ian is an "effing psycho."
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby eee » September 3rd, 2013, 7:02 am

zz1000zz wrote:Really? Up until Saus, Jon never had a problem with Ian. Then he shot an elf to save Ian and Meji. There was a brief pause, and he tried to get Ian to take Meji and get out, resolving the situation without further violence. Ian ignored him and attacked the elves instead. Jon joined in on the ensuing violence, killing an elf so he could escape with Meji. He then tried to get Ian to come with him. Again, Ian ignored him and attacked the elves (well, I think there was only one left at this point).

It was the fact Ian was more interested in killing elves than escaping that "set Jon off." Not only was it senseless, it put both Jon and Meji at risk. If Jon hadn't moved Meji, she would have died. And even though he did move, both he and her were still nearly killed. All because Ian wanted to kill an elf, no matter what the consequences of the fight might be.

In other words, Jon realized Ian is an "effing psycho."

Well, that certainly could be. On the other hand, everything Ian knows about Elves clearly tells him that when they attack half-Elves, half-Elves die. Unless the half-Elf can kill the Elf first. Now, the Elves attacked Meji and him, they were obviously hostile, and it could well be argued that unless they were all killed first trying to run away would be fatal because the Elves would just pursue and cut them down from behind. In fact, it was only because Ian killed most of the other Elves and got locked in mortal combat with the Captain - and that Sarine decided not to 'play' - that Jon and Meji got away. So from that point of view, Jon's hostility would be mis-directed.

But perhaps Jon just doesn't know about the 'Elf kills half-Elf' thing. He DID fall asleep when Ian was explaining Elvish history, after all. And I'm not sure he was listening when Ian warned Meji that if she met an Elf, even her father, it would be kill or be killed. If Jon's ignorant about that bit, then his anger at Ian would be understandable.
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby Anthony » September 3rd, 2013, 1:26 pm

eee wrote:On the other hand, everything Ian knows about Elves clearly tells him that when they attack half-Elves, half-Elves die.

This may mean that Ian's actions were rational from Ian's POV. That doesn't make them rational from Jon's POV (note that, based on evidence available up to this point in the storyline, Jon might well be wrong, but that doesn't make his reaction irrational based on the information he possesses).
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby Neko7 » September 4th, 2013, 3:15 am

And Naga and Fran are back into the silhouette crowd.

As far as what the Ensigerum told us, the elves have a "secret" campaign of half-elf extermination, so it is logical Jon, as little concern and concerned as it is about that, would not know about that, or at least how bad it is (he did hear the warning Ian gave to Meji).

And I doubt Tsuiraku would let elves roam as freely in their street as they are when they visit, and they certainly would buy the elven excuse for Meji having a "trip to her father roots" when the elves kidnaped her.
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby zz1000zz » September 4th, 2013, 6:31 pm

Why is there talk of people's POVs? Ian's knowledge of elves didn't give him any special insight. Jon could tell the elves wanted to capture/kill Ian and Meji just as well as Ian could. The fact the elves had already attacked rendered any knowledge the two had irrelevant. It was clear the elves were there to kill/capture Ian and Meji.

The only question was, was it better to fight or try to escape? Jon, not being psychotic, knew trying to escape was better. He knew destroying buildings and nearly getting your companions killed due to your reckless disregard for anyone's safety is a bad thing.

And you can't just say "it was only because Ian" did anything that Jon and Meji escaped. You have no basis for that. You don't know what would have happened if Ian had not gone psycho. In reality, fighting defensive battles, such as one might while retreating, is almost always easier and safer than going toe-to-toe with an enemy.

On top of all that, even if you don't believe Ian's decision was idiotic, he was still psycho. Look at how he acts throughout the entire sequence. He lashes out with a wild attack then never talks and shows no regard for his companions' safety. That's the sort of person you want to avoid having around you, especially if they can use magic.
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby eee » September 4th, 2013, 9:42 pm

zz1000zz wrote:Why is there talk of people's POVs? Ian's knowledge of elves didn't give him any special insight. Jon could tell the elves wanted to capture/kill Ian and Meji just as well as Ian could. The fact the elves had already attacked rendered any knowledge the two had irrelevant. It was clear the elves were there to kill/capture Ian and Meji.

The only question was, was it better to fight or try to escape? Jon, not being psychotic, knew trying to escape was better. He knew destroying buildings and nearly getting your companions killed due to your reckless disregard for anyone's safety is a bad thing.

And you can't just say "it was only because Ian" did anything that Jon and Meji escaped. You have no basis for that. You don't know what would have happened if Ian had not gone psycho. In reality, fighting defensive battles, such as one might while retreating, is almost always easier and safer than going toe-to-toe with an enemy.

On top of all that, even if you don't believe Ian's decision was idiotic, he was still psycho. Look at how he acts throughout the entire sequence. He lashes out with a wild attack then never talks and shows no regard for his companions' safety. That's the sort of person you want to avoid having around you, especially if they can use magic.


Well, let's consider what would most probably happened if Ian HADN'T attacked the Elves. Jon had just killed an Elf and had only three bullets left in his revolver. Meji was out cold. There were no other humans around to intervene, and they were in the middle of a street with no buildings nearby they could duck into and try to lose the Elves in. The Elven Attack Force had orders to bring the Errants in, probably alive or dead, there were four of them still functional, they were trained combatants and mages, and they'd just seen one of their number shot in the back by a human.

...

Oh yeah, this would have been a cakewalk. Ian could have just thrown up a shield, Jon picked up Meji, and they'd have gone merrily skipping down the street while the Elves did nothing. No shield destroying blasts from the four of them, no running up side streets to attack from the front, no "Earth SMASH!" spells to drop boulders on Ian, Jon, Ellis, and Meji before they got away, no grim, vengeance-seeking anger or 'following orders' determination to chase them for miles if necessary, hammering away at them until the Errants and their human were dead, none of that. There was no need for Ian to unleash all the attack spells he could as if he were fighting for his life against foes with superior numbers and probably power. Really.

:roll:
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby Bytemite » September 4th, 2013, 11:47 pm

Might not be as complicated as all this. I always felt like how Jon described it here in the last panel pretty much summed up how he felt about it and why. If someone suddenly reveals that they have the ability and inclination to turn most of an inhabited city into a fireball, most people would start to think poorly of them for demonstrating that power in a REAL hurry. No matter what the reason, no matter if it saved their collective asses and allowed them to escape in the ruckus, no matter if all the - insert racial group and questionable paranoia here - are out to get them and they'd die if they didn't fight back with everything they've got. In fact that just makes them look more crazy even if it IS true.

It's an issue of collateral damage. Jon might be a hitman and a card carrying not nice guy, but he also tends to carefully pick his targets and limit casualties because endangering civilians and innocents seems to actually offend him on an ethical level. Ian forgot about the bystanders, which in addition to making a huge scene against all Jon's instincts as an assassin, kinda pissed him off.

Although yeah, Ian's reaction to just keep throwing fire around when Jon gave the "time to run now!" last call probably also plays a role in Jon's opinion. Still, Jon did have just enough time before fleeing to realize what a huge mess the entire situation had become, and the role Ian not altogether intentionally played in that.
Last edited by Bytemite on September 5th, 2013, 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2013-09-02: [CT] City Burning Contest

Postby zz1000zz » September 5th, 2013, 3:09 am

eee, are you aware you just created a straw man, or are you so indifferent to other people's views that you didn't even pay attention? Jon tried to get Ian to run away well after Ian had attacked the elves. Ian completely ignored him. Ian's initial attack was appropriate, but that's not what I was talking about. Ian could have easily launched that attack then tried to escape.

Try exercising some charity when you talk to people rather than assuming that just because they disagree with you, they're irrational morons deserving of mockery.

While you're at it, you might want to go back and address the stupid things you said. I responded to a number of points; you just ignored me. That says a lot.
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