Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

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RubberBandMan
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by RubberBandMan »

I don't know. Most of what we've seen about the training at least implies that death is very very common while training, And Sara (Who may not have the best viewpoint on this kind of thing) Did claim she wasn't brainwashed... Which might be suspect with almost killing her brother.

On the other hand, she also had no problem traveling with her brother once she thought that the order would no longer take her back, even if Jon did die. She seems to at least understand what they were trying to do to her, which most likely helps.

All and All, Sara strikes me as very pragmatic about her survival. I wouldn't want to be between her and the way out of a death trap, considering she'd Slice open her own brother with hardly a word just so the Time-Ninjas trust her.
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Joe Milino
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by Joe Milino »

Yes, it doesn't exactly seem like Sara was brainwashed (I didn't mean for it to sound like that.) It just seems like she's undergone some quite intense emotional suppression training (What good assassin hasn't?) It does prove hard to read what her motives are in the whole situation though. . . it's almost as if she's confused, and just doesn't want to commit to one decison and possibly screw herself over. Seems like total self-interest though, I agree.

Oh, Boss, also sorry. I totally sympathize. Except in a few isolated cases, I also detest the kind of gender stereotyping that the entertainment industry's laid down on characters (Cases like the Terminator, but he's a robot, he's not SUPPOSED to have ANY emotions.) Hmm, probably could have thought of a better example than Dirty Harry though; was just referencing how in some cases the "touchy-feely" emotions are not attributed to male icons. Not always true, but it does seem to happen to many badass male characters. That\s why I'm glad when there's a character like Jon, much more interesting to read.
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by BloodHenge »

Joe Milino wrote:It just seems like she's undergone some quite intense emotional suppression training (What good assassin hasn't?)
Jon.
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by Slamlander »

Joe Milino wrote:It just seems like she's undergone some quite intense emotional suppression training (What good assassin hasn't?)
D'accord! Yes, Jon and Sara aren't much different there. Both have managed to retain their core persona in the face of extreme training and threat. Both can be very professional in their jobs but neither have taken on-board the indoctrination of their respective organizations, which means maintaining a convincing facade. Once actually removed from the immediate reach of their group, both are slowly showing their true selves to Sarine.

Note that, after the failure in the temple, Jon can't go back to the Wraiths any more than Sara can go back to the Ensigerum. Both of them have hitched their wagons to Sarine. This makes them possibly the most deadly trio in this universe.
Last edited by Slamlander on May 23rd, 2008, 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by Slamlander »

Graybeard wrote:
Michael Poe wrote:Oddly enough, with Japanese Proto Sara all the emotional suppression was suppose to just be how she was wired... or I might have been considering that she had be abused before joining the Japanese Proto Wraiths, I can't recall honestly.

The stuff about it being the result of all the hellish training didn't come about till much later when I started creating the Ensigerum. I suppose we'll just have to wait till the sequel to see what Sara's like once she gets over all the programing.
The tacit approval of the description of Ensigerum training as "hellish" is interesting. Nothing in Sara's flashback, nor in what we've seen in the Ensigerum village, strikes me as being more "hellish" than what is routinely done in military boot camps around the world. Yes, it is physically taxing, and from the sound of it there is a non-trivial chance of something fatal happening to the trainee.

But it isn't simply degrading, or at least what we've seen of it isn't. Even Warrel's slap across the face at the windmill, which is probably the most "hellish" thing we have seen Sara undergo, is hardly extreme by the standards of such things.

Really "hellish" environments don't inflict hell on the body; they inflict it on the mind. Maybe Sara hasn't figured that out yet.
I might disagree with you here. But I perceive that we may have different views of what we might consider Hellish. My version does not involve degradation or debasement. However, it does include the constant real threat of immediate death. A terminal redefinition of washout. Nerve agent drills in Panama, with live nerve agent, comes to mind. We had two deaths in my training company, from that one.

You don't create elite soldiers by debasing and degrading them. You want them to have maximum self-esteem and confidence in what they do so, actual degradation is out. The Ensigerum got their charges while young and there was nothing to tear down, which is what Basic Training is about. AIT is about building them up.
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by DarkIntruder »

Slamlander wrote:Nerve agent drills in Panama, with live nerve agent, comes to mind. We had two deaths in my training company, from that one.
Dude, what year was that? Was it even legal? Jeez, and I thought that the CS gas hut was bad. Fuck....

But yes, intense military training changes people, for better or worse. Training for active duty in a combat zone even more so. Spending a great deal of time learning how to kill another human being without emotions getting in the way will do that to a person.
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by Graybeard »

Slamlander wrote:
Graybeard wrote: The tacit approval of the description of Ensigerum training as "hellish" is interesting. Nothing in Sara's flashback, nor in what we've seen in the Ensigerum village, strikes me as being more "hellish" than what is routinely done in military boot camps around the world. Yes, it is physically taxing, and from the sound of it there is a non-trivial chance of something fatal happening to the trainee.

But it isn't simply degrading, or at least what we've seen of it isn't. Even Warrel's slap across the face at the windmill, which is probably the most "hellish" thing we have seen Sara undergo, is hardly extreme by the standards of such things.

Really "hellish" environments don't inflict hell on the body; they inflict it on the mind. Maybe Sara hasn't figured that out yet.
I might disagree with you here. But I perceive that we may have different views of what we might consider Hellish. My version does not involve degradation or debasement. However, it does include the constant real threat of immediate death. A terminal redefinition of washout. Nerve agent drills in Panama, with live nerve agent, comes to mind. We had two deaths in my training company, from that one.

You don't create elite soldiers by debasing and degrading them. You want them to have maximum self-esteem and confidence in what they do so, actual degradation is out. The Ensigerum got their charges while young and there was nothing to tear down, which is what Basic Training is about. AIT is about building them up.
Interesting observations. I suspect you're correct that our views of "hellish" differ. My own (limited) experiences with "real threat of immediate death" were more exhilarating than hellish, but they are in no way comparable to yours. However, a good friend got mortared in Iraq, and I think it would not stretch things to call her experience "hellish" -- not, however, simply because she got mortared, but because she faced mortar attack in vain. By the time of the attack she had figured out that she was being used as a political pawn (and btw, I'm not talking about someone in the military here) for purposes contrary to her own beliefs and reasons for being there, and she had become terminally disillusioned. Far worse than suffering for a cause is suffering for a cause you no longer believe in, if you ever did, because that fully engages the mind in the suffering, not just the body and nerve endings.

As for how you create elite soldiers, not being and never having been one, I have zero first-hand experience to go on. However, friends who've been through that did experience a tearing-down of identity and ego, before the regeneration of the self-esteem and confidence -- in a way tied to their country, service and unit rather than to their identity. The tearing-down process would be something I would consider "hellish," if only mildly so because of the knowledge that it isn't going to last forever. But a perpetual and overwhelming assault on your sense of self that shows no sign of ever coming to an end -- that, my friend, is pretty close to the ultimate hell-on-earth that I can imagine.
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by mindstalk »

Slamlander wrote: Note that, after the failure in the temple, Jon can't go back to the Wraiths any more than Sara can go back to the Ensigerum. Both of them have hitched their wagons to Sarine. This makes them possibly the most deadly trio in this universe.
Um, is that true? The Wraith leader was pissed at Jon for getting his cover blown by a prostitute, and willing to expend him to see if the "promising contact in the Veracian church" was actually a trap, but I don't think he'd kill Jon for coming back with the news that "yep, trap. Also I figured out how to fight the damn time monks."
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by BloodHenge »

Graybeard wrote:But a perpetual and overwhelming assault on your sense of self that shows no sign of ever coming to an end -- that, my friend, is pretty close to the ultimate hell-on-earth that I can imagine.
And it might actually be a plausible description of the actual Hell (if you believe in that sort of thing). Although, in the interest of keeping the thread more or less on topic, I won't go into that unless someone asks.
mindstalk wrote:
Slamlander wrote: Note that, after the failure in the temple, Jon can't go back to the Wraiths any more than Sara can go back to the Ensigerum. Both of them have hitched their wagons to Sarine. This makes them possibly the most deadly trio in this universe.
Um, is that true? The Wraith leader was pissed at Jon for getting his cover blown by a prostitute, and willing to expend him to see if the "promising contact in the Veracian church" was actually a trap, but I don't think he'd kill Jon for coming back with the news that "yep, trap. Also I figured out how to fight the damn time monks."
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Re: Filler 5/18 - 5/24, 2008.

Post by Boss Out of Town »

mindstalk wrote:
Slamlander wrote: Note that, after the failure in the temple, Jon can't go back to the Wraiths any more than Sara can go back to the Ensigerum. Both of them have hitched their wagons to Sarine. This makes them possibly the most deadly trio in this universe.
Um, is that true? The Wraith leader was pissed at Jon for getting his cover blown by a prostitute, and willing to expend him to see if the "promising contact in the Veracian church" was actually a trap, but I don't think he'd kill Jon for coming back with the news that "yep, trap. Also I figured out how to fight the damn time monks."
Yeah, depending on how well things went in Veracia after Jon escaped, they might be glad to see him. Of course, if all the Gewehr in Veracia got killed in the aftermath of Warrel's death, Jon would have to be careful not to be used as the scapegoat for his superior's bungling. Not his fault the monks are nearly invincible and the Wraiths had no business picking a fight with them, but someone might want him to take the blame.
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