2008 US Presidential Election

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Viking-Sensei
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2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Viking-Sensei »

Since Impy's already broken in this board, I'd like to throw this hot button issue into the ring and see where you all stand on it. Who's looking good and why, what scenarios you'd like to see played out, which platforms are the most important to you, that sort of stuff. Also, I know there's a fair international contingent here on these boards as well, but instead of excluding you all, I'm really curious about an outside view on our microcosm. How much is what's going on here covered elsewhere, what do other countries want to see happen next with good old American politics...

I'll go ahead and start... I was, up until somewhere around 2002-2003, a fairly straight-line Republican. I like to think of myself more as a centrist, but since there isn't a major party here that walks the line between liberal and conservative, I usually try and latch my support on to the most liberal Republican that I can find. Recently, I've been going more along the most conservative Democrat lines, however this batch of candidates for election has got me scuppered.

I don't particularly like Hillary Clinton, but scandals aside her husband's turn behind the wheel was fairly successful (even if all he did was not do anything - it still takes brains and/or talent to know when not to act). Barack Obama's too young, and he doesn't have nearly the experience in federal levels to qualify him as anything more than possibly a VP candidate... however his apparent lack of experience could also be read as a lack of corruption, and it could possibly play well in his favor. Edwards WAS my front runner, however with his wife's cancer metastasizing into bone cancer, he's going to have a lot of personal stuff on his plate and probably will take himself out of the running. If Gore decides to throw his hat in the ring... I'm going to ask the ring to kindly throw his hat back out. The 2000 Presidential Elections and the controversy surrounding the count-off of votes in Florida really showed a bit more of his character than I think he wanted them too, and I've not fully trusted him since (not that I trusted him fully before).

On the Republican side... we're still damned if we do, damned if we don't. Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney are both fucking insane, each in their own special way, and I can't do it. John McCain, who was my candidate-of-choice in 2000, appears to have forgotten where he put his brain and his morals. Rudy Giuliani might not be bad, except that he's got the same problem as Obama due to his huge lack of experience at a federal level. And then there's Fred Thompson... everybody wants the reanimated corpse of Ronald Reagan to come back for a third term, but I don't know if I'd be able to support him honestly. Maybe if he got Sam Waterstone to run as his VP.

So... I started it, who's next?
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Imp-Chan »

I will most likely not be voting in the 2008 election.

I think the system has been, to put it mildly, systematically fucked up, and it is not all Bush's fault. It was a little broken to start with, and the world has changed drastically since then, which the system has for the most part failed to accomodate with any kind of reliability, or more importantly, accountability. It won't matter who they elect as President, the person will have too much power and too little accountability, just like the rest of the current government.

More than that, the next President will also be faced with a number of drastically bad situations to get us out of, thanks in no small part to the current President, his administration, and the extremely vocal if distastefully ignorant swathes of our populace. I don't believe that the politician exists who has the integrity to not abuse the power that has been willingly surrendered in the past dozen years, and whether they think they're making things better or not, they are bound to get worse first. I also don't believe that the person exists who could sufficiently unite the populace to get them to self correct or educate themselves enough to make good choices for all rather than for themselves. I particularly can't imagine a candidate who could successfully convince those with money and power to use it for the greater good. In short... I see no good choices for a candidate, I have absolutely zero hope for the system recovering, and while I may not be able to vote that we scrap the system and start over on the same principles but with better application, I can at least choose not to vote in a way that I believe will make things worse. I pray that I am wrong, and that the patterns I see developing won't go the direction I anticipate after all, but just in case I think I'll refrain from participation in this round as much as possible.

If you have more faith than I, by all means vote. Someone's got to... at the very least, the politicians will, and in the absence of opposition they'll win.

-_-'
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Forrest »

I am a sort of anarchist; however, not the "fuck the system, voting is tacit consent to facism" sort of anarchist. I'm an anarchist precisely because I don't believe in tacit consent: I don't believe anyone has any ethical obligation to obey the arbitrary commands of the government (though people have ethical obligations which sometimes coincide with the commands of the government), and no weird social contract theory of implied consent can create such obligations. (c.f. David Hume and his "carried aboard a ship asleep" argument). So to me, the government is just a bunch of people, just like any others besides their popular support (c.f. George Carlin vs the Pope), and voting is, to me, like a slavemaster asking which sort of living and working conditions his slaves would like: I still don't recognize the master's supposed authority, but if he's going to impose it anyway and is giving me options about it, I might as well pick the option that sucks the least.

Further, I don't oppose the existence of governments per se (or more accurately put, governance), I just deny the existence of the state as some abstract sovereign entity on whose authority governments can act, and deny that governments have any special power to create ethical obligations by fiat, or any special insight into what people's natural obligations are (c.f. atheists who deny the existence of God, and the authority of the church to declare or magically divine the truth; but don't in principle mind churches going around telling people what the church thinks is true, though the atheist may argue with them about such issues). I think people should make sure that other people aren't doing bad things, i.e. govern each other; I just don't think that anyone has any more right or responsibility to do so than anyone else, and I disagree with most people on what exactly constitutes "bad things". So I'm happy to debate about or vote on what "we" should or should not collectively do to govern each other. One way or another, the majority will always get their way (the government will have the powers that the majority of people allow it, even if that government is just one autocrat), so I might as well do what I can to sway the majority to my way of thinking, if for no other reason than to keep certain minorities (e.g. the government) in check.

All that said, I usually vote for libertarians and greens for all the minor positions, occasionally some democrats, and during the two elections I've been eligible to vote, I've strategically voted democrat for president, mostly as an "anyone but Bush" ticket. My hopefuls for this upcoming election are Ron Paul for Republican candidate, because he will make the Republican party suck at least a little less, being a "libertarian" (albiet of a very right-wing persuasion) in Republican's clothing; and Obama for Democratic candidate, mostly because he is young and inexperienced and I think that that would stir some things up nicely, compared to the old-money entrenched-power political dynast(s) we've had so far this century. If Obama gets the democratic nomination I'll probably vote for him; if not, there's a slight chance I might (for the first time in my life) vote Republican, IF and ONLY if Ron Paul gets it (though I'm really not incredibly fond of him either). Failing either of them, I'll probably vote for a third party; not like it makes a difference here in California where the Democratic candidate always wins anyway (in national elections at least).
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Shteven »

Ron Paul is so far right that he's left. Despite a strong internet following, he doesn't have much of a real-world following, so I don't expect him to get anywhere (aka, nominated).

My guess is that Hilary would get the democratic nomination, which I'd be ok with. But just think of how messed up it would be to have our presidential office held by Bush->Clinton->Clinton->Bush->Bush->Clinton. Yeah, we're changing the leadership every 4 years, we are...

I have two main issues with presidential elections:
1) There are MANY valid political viewpoints, but you can only choose between two candidates. The current primaries are interesting because you'll have a lot of people who like Ron Paul, but hate Romney, or vice versa. Pity that when election time comes, there's no way to make this choice anymore. The primaries are the real election. A viable multi-party election system would be better. Of course, there are issues, but they are workable problems.

2) Negatives vastly outweigh positives. The textbook example of this would be Howard dean's rally speech. At a rally, trying to raise enthusiasm amongst his supporters, he yells just slightly too loud, and now he's permanently unable to run for president. I asked a friend of mine who he would vote for that year, and he said he refused to vote since he intended to only vote for Dean. Funny, I thought we were supposed to be picking based on the issues. Compare it to sports teams: a sports team with a 54-12 record is vastly superior to a 3-0 team that's just started out. But in politics, the goal is instead to maintain 0 negatives for as long as possible, which is only practically achievable by never taking risks.

A minor issue would be the electoral college instead of using the popular vote, but this isn't as critical as the other two and only effects close races. Then again, the last few have been rather close...

Edit: Fixed a glaring error in mixing up Fred Thompson with Larry Craig (just removed the comment). They're actually two separate people, imagine that. Glad no one actually read this! ;)
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Slamlander »

Pressed to the wall, I'd have to go with Bill Richardson (D-NM). Yes, me, a Republican, would vote for a Democrat. The only Republican I could stomache would be McCain and that'd be a stretch. Like Impy said, they've FUBAR'd the system to the point that folks are looking for the reset switch.

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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Viking-Sensei »

Well, historically, the Republican and Democrat parties (or whatever their ancestrial equivilants were called at the time) have done a reversal-of-the-poles every so often. In the mid 1800s, it was the 'liberal' Republicans who fought against slavery and for progressive human rights while the 'conservative' Democrats were supporters of big business and the religious right (at that time, Roman Catholics). Then, with the 1896 election (going from memory, may be wrong here) there was a massive reallignment and the Republicans supported someone who was seriously pro-business and the whole system started to swing on it's axis, eventually landing the parties in their reversed roles as we percieve them today.

While I used to be Republican BW (Before Dubya) I'm really not sure where I stand right now. I have no idea how Rush Limbaugh and other talking head idiots can continue to define a party which has started a war on 2 (possibly 3) fronts and has been plauged relentlessly by sex scandals and corruption as "conservative". I suspect if the Dems front their most conservative candidate and the GOP fronts it's most liberal, we're probably headed towards another reversal.
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Neko7 »

Make petition to pleblicite Steven Colbert as candidat in your state and vote for him in both side of the 1st turn election.

Neko7, officially endorsing the Colbert's candidacy.
(I don't care, I can't vote :mrgreen: )
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Graybeard »

Neko7 wrote:Make petition to pleblicite Steven Colbert as candidat in your state and vote for him in both side of the 1st turn election.
We could do worse, and in all likelihood, will.

The big question for this election is (or at least should be), who has a realistic chance to clean up the mess? None of the candidates have presented anything like a realistic plan to deal with Iraq, and with the cost for that bit of stupidity rapidly heading into the TRILLIONS of dollars range, it's paralyzing the national ability to deal with anything else. But plans for such things, and the leaders to make and implement them, are sometimes made, not born. For example, I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I will give reasonably high marks to Bush Senior for seeing the fiscal ruin that the Reagan administration's supply-side economics and tax cuts were inflicting on the country, and doing something about it, even though changing course was unpopular with the very people who got him elected. Of course the effect was to get him thrown out after one term ... and the lesson was lost on his imbecile son. Or maybe not, since getting re-elected seems to have been more important to the imbecile son and his cronies than doing what's right.

At this point I would settle for a candidate who's wise rather than one who fits my particular ideology. Ain't none. Lacking a wise person, maybe a wise-ass like Colbert is the best we can do ...
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by ubergeek72 »

All I will say on this one is, "Vote. Please." Vote for whoever you like. Anyone on the ballot. Hold your nose if you have to, but try to find the one who stinks the least to you. You may not think it matters, but at least you valued your own opinion enough to get to your polling place and get a flag sticker. See, if you don't value your opinion enough to vote, why should anyone listen to it later when you complain about who *did* get elected? If we, as American Citizens, have any duty to our country at all, it is to vote and tell the country what we want done. Otherwise the chicken-heads who can be bothered will run it, and we'll all suffer.

Now if we just had some candidates worth the trouble.

-JRS
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Re: 2008 US Presidential Election

Post by Cassanne »

So, now that hings have gotten a bit more interesting, who do you americans think/hope/fear will be your next president?

Far away in Europe I'm hoping for Giuliani (all the other republicans scare me) vs Obama. And for Obama to win...
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