OOC: Maps

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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Graybeard » September 7th, 2008, 11:06 pm

Looks good to me. Thranel is presumably somewhere northeast of Port Lorrel, but need not (and probably should not) appear in the Errant Road-verse. I'd envisioned Kugelheim somewhere south of Thranel, east-northeast of Lorrel. The Mountains of Madness can be somewhere near the middle of the Farrel continent. Taberna is out there somewhere ... but again, we probably don't need to worry about it.

Thanks for doing that.
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Sareth » September 8th, 2008, 12:51 am

Several thoughts here.

First, Wierdonian has talent. I've some capabilities in that direction, but I think Wierdonian kicks my ass three ways from sunday. So if/when we decide to do something a bit more offical or fancier...

Anyway... Getting to the nuts and bolts...

First, we have little sense of scale on this. We know that Meji, Jon, and Sarine have had to travel long enough distances to have to overnight before. However, given that the typical fit foot traveler covers roughly 40 miles, that still means that the distances here could potentially be pretty small. If that is true, Farrel's no less messed up than Greece. If you look at Greece on a map, it's got splits like that "river" all over the place. Personally, I don't go for that idea personally, but I wanted to throw that out there.

Now, assuming a larger scale... Viking-sensei's discussion of plate tectonics could explain a good deal about Farrel. To site some real world examples of the sorts of places we're talking about, you have Baja California. That long penincula seperated from Texas by a long thin body of water? That's the sort of action Viking is talking about. The northern half of that fault line runs through California above sea level. However it still has a valley that is familiar to Californians. Another example is the rift valley of Africa (in Kenya) which will eventually rip Somalia right off Africa and create a long, narrow sea that is (initially) less than a mile wide in many places. We take the line of the rivers and lakes through Farrel and extend it into that gulf above Veracia, and we have a fault line that could be producing exactly that sort of effect. (One programming note, if that's the case, then this region would be earthquake prone and possibly volcanic as well. Think of the San Andreas, for example.)

Of course, we could always redraw anything inconvenient, depending on approval from Poe.

Now, we do have one thing to give us a little sense of things. Viking's additions, particularly Kiyoka and Port Lorrel really give us a sense of scale. We know that the boat from Kiyoka to Port Lorrel has made the trip twice, but in neither did I ever get a sense of just how long those passages took. I did get the feeling the boat was fast...

Now, if we take those data into play and start using them as a basis for a more detailed map, I think we are in business for a "world" map.

Now here's the next question. Just how detailed do we need on a city map? I could try my hand at some simple ones. The question then just becomes where would we host such a thing, and how would we update it/them?
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Graybeard » September 8th, 2008, 8:58 am

Sareth wrote:First, we have little sense of scale on this. We know that Meji, Jon, and Sarine have had to travel long enough distances to have to overnight before. However, given that the typical fit foot traveler covers roughly 40 miles, that still means that the distances here could potentially be pretty small. If that is true, Farrel's no less messed up than Greece. If you look at Greece on a map, it's got splits like that "river" all over the place. Personally, I don't go for that idea personally, but I wanted to throw that out there.


The lack of scale has been an issue pretty well ever since this map appeared. However, there are clues from the main story. The Farrel continent has to be at least 500 miles wide or thereabouts, else there would have been little incentive for Sarine, Jon and Meji to poit from Taberna to Port Lorrel so that Thranel would only be a few days' walk away; if the continent/island was smaller, Thranel would already be "a few days' walk away" from Taberna, since Taberna isn't antipodal to Lorrel (Isabel is). However, it's constrained to be not much more than that, by the fact that Meji and Jon crossed from Saus to Taberna via a usual Gewehr slow boat in only a few days -- we don't know how many, but it can't have been long enough to put a significant dent in Meji's schedule for completing her project. From the main map, it's clear that that sailing distance is about the same as the width of the Farrel continent. So a width of 500 miles seems about right.

A fit party can cover 40 miles a day on the ground -- for a while. (Actually, a lot more than that is possible. Check this reference for something that'll make your blood run cold. A guy who works for me runs in this thing. He exudes a certain ... aura.) However, sustaining that kind of pace without a massive support system is very difficult. Here's an example of how it can be done and what it takes. It goes without saying that Sarine, Jon and Meji didn't have that kind of support system.

Sareth wrote:Now, assuming a larger scale... Viking-sensei's discussion of plate tectonics could explain a good deal about Farrel. To site some real world examples of the sorts of places we're talking about, you have Baja California. That long penincula seperated from Texas by a long thin body of water? That's the sort of action Viking is talking about.


Separated from the bulk of Mexico, rather than Texas, but I take your point. However, it's an illustration of exactly the problem I'm having here, as is the Rift Valley. (Another example, btw, is the Rio Grande Rift, quivering beneath my feet as I write this.) Single, clean, and particularly, open cleavages on the continental scale just don't happen; they're closed on one end or the other. Think of what happens as a zipper operates, that kind of thing. The "cleanest" structure on earth like this is the Red Sea, which is an extension of the Rift Valley and remarkably uniform in width for most of its length. It's still closed at one end.

However, I'm willing to flex on this one. If that strait or whatever it is really crosses all of Farrel, we can work with it. Mountains somewhere on the continent are a necessity, though.

Sareth wrote:(One programming note, if that's the case, then this region would be earthquake prone and possibly volcanic as well. Think of the San Andreas, for example.)


Let's find a way to work that into the story we're telling. I'd already been thinking of the "Mountains of Madness" in those terms.

Sareth wrote:Now, we do have one thing to give us a little sense of things. Viking's additions, particularly Kiyoka and Port Lorrel really give us a sense of scale. We know that the boat from Kiyoka to Port Lorrel has made the trip twice, but in neither did I ever get a sense of just how long those passages took. I did get the feeling the boat was fast...


The intent with Mr. Stagpoole's dwarven hydrofoil was a speed of maybe 50 mph, allowing the voyage from Kiyoka to Port Lorrel in something like 4 or 5 hours. The slow boat that Layla is currently on will take a couple of days.

Sareth wrote:Now here's the next question. Just how detailed do we need on a city map? I could try my hand at some simple ones. The question then just becomes where would we host such a thing, and how would we update it/them?


I think reasonably detailed city maps would be quite helpful, so let's see if we can solve these problems.
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby AdamZero » September 8th, 2008, 8:25 pm

*sips root beer* I just tried my hand at a little mapping... for my story... and I fell on my face.

Any tips wierdoian?
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Weirdonian » September 8th, 2008, 9:19 pm

I think it'd be easy, or at least interesting, to assume that the strait/rivers/lakes in Farrel are unnatural in origin, the result of someone or something ripping the continent in half. We could then largely ignore them when considering natural topography, and they'd become one massive canyon which might make for some cool locations.

AdamZero: Any tips wierdoian?


Well, if you've got some artistic abilities, you just have to practice and study; study real world topography as well as fantasy maps (Lord of the Rings stuff is a good starting place). Try your hand at copying some of the features of the maps others have drawn and you'll begin to find your way. If you'd rather go the more technological route, like with Photoshop or GIMP (which I use), most of the same principals apply. For some maps, I use both methods: I'll create a general map/continental layout I want in my sketchbook, then scan that in and edit heavily it in GIMP, and you can even create bump and specularity maps to upload into a 3D rendering program, like Blender or Bryce to create realistic looking planets. But, like learning any new techniques and or skills, it all takes lots of practice and study. My general rule of thumb is to start with the kernel of the idea for a map/planet first. And ask lots of questions too as to why things are the way you've designed them and just how did they get that way and where are they going from there? If you're not very confident in your drawing abilities, I'd sugest you go the more technological route. I highly recomend GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program), which can be downloaded here for free:

http://www.gimp.org/
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Sareth » September 9th, 2008, 1:22 am

Do we want to just run with Viking's updated map, filling details in as we go, or should one of us (I nominate Wierdonian) update it?

Next question... Should those willing to map things sit down and attempt to make city maps of some sort? One of us could comb the Kiyoka thread for positional info and swag up a city map, another could do the same with Port Lorral. And of course if if our unofficial GMs have future plans they can shanghei us into mapping ahead of time...

Any idea where to host things such that maps can be updated as needed?
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Graybeard » September 9th, 2008, 8:30 am

Sareth wrote:Do we want to just run with Viking's updated map, filling details in as we go, or should one of us (I nominate Wierdonian) update it?

Either works, but I'd vote for Weirdo doing it if he's willing. Incidentally, I've been persuaded that it's OK for the odd waterway to extend all the way through the Farrel continent; in fact it opens some opportunities for outdoor activities of a weird, magical kind.

Sareth wrote:Next question... Should those willing to map things sit down and attempt to make city maps of some sort? One of us could comb the Kiyoka thread for positional info and swag up a city map, another could do the same with Port Lorral. And of course if if our unofficial GMs have future plans they can shanghei us into mapping ahead of time...

Weirdo and I have already been swapping some notes on Port Lorrel. I think I have a pretty good idea where the key things are in Kiyoka as well, at least the ones described so far. If he's willing to do the art work, I'm on top of the what-is-where part. This brings up a point: I am most certainly NOT the final arbiter of places and settings in Errant Road! I've written stuff that identifies a number of locales, but ANYONE can identify locales for their characters -- or NPCs -- to interact with. This should get easier once there are good maps, IMO, which is one of the most compelling reasons for creating some.

Sareth wrote:Any idea where to host things such that maps can be updated as needed?

Remember that we have an "Images" forum here that's little used, although what's there is really good stuff. The different images shown there suggest options for the actual source of the images; pick one. A topic within that forum like "Errant Road maps" should suffice for collating the maps once they're there, and should make it easy to keep updated information available painlessly (except for the preparer of the maps...).
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby AdamZero » September 12th, 2008, 1:13 am

Okay I'm trying to figure out Marcus's path round the world, thinking he's older than he looks (ironic for a Necromancer) any who, if maybe he passed through the mountains maybe, or would have to.
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Graybeard » August 31st, 2012, 11:16 am

Bump. This topic has sat idle for years now, and in those years we have done wonderful things in putting some details into the Errant World. In doing so we have also created major pitfalls resulting from different players have substantially different ideas about where things are.

We need a map.

Are there any readers, not just players in Errant Road but others following the action, who'd be willing to collaborate on making one? I know approximately where everything has been, and have a "sketch" version in mind for the key locations, but am too much of a klutz with map-making software to be ideal to carry all the weight on this. Let's see what other resources are out there, because it's really time that we do this.
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Re: OOC: Maps

Postby Jack Rothwell » August 31st, 2012, 3:14 pm

Agreed. Fortunately Drusia's has platform orientated solution for dealing with the distance issue from Goriel to Lorrel. But having a realistic idea of where everything is would be a great help for ploting out travel times and locations to visit.

I'm dumber than a sack of hammers when it comes to geography. The only locations I've got a grasp on that I invented would be Grendell, Tamina's village and Ester.

Basically Grendell is two days sailing south from Port Lorrel, and rests on the northern tip of the southern continent, Tamina's village is about an hours walk south from that. I put Ester (a tiny village with not much going on) about a day's ride east of the Port, and maybe a highway trading town called 'Logan's rest' about half a day's ride west of it.

Hope that's a help.
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