POLL: Who's the "Jesus figure" Poe was talking about?

[Graybeard]

Poe wrote, in his notes to the March 26th, 2013 page where he expanded the conversation about creation myths and noted that the Veracians reworked theirs to include the events of Errant Story:

you won’t believe which character they peg as their eventual Jesus figure

Well, just who do they put in the role? Here's your chance to voice your prediction on the matter, with some of the leading candidates listed below. Please feel free to jump in and explain your vote, particularly if you choose "someone else." We'll leave this one open for a while.

[Alberich]

He's already answered that question. It's Luminosita. After Ian kills Luminosita, the official Church doctrine becomes that Luminosita sacrificed Himself to save His people, and is going to be resurrected (as he doubtless will as soon as the Church puts enough mana in the battery). That's the "Jesus" role right there.

Closest one after that would be Ian, because while in reality Ian is the one who popped Luminosita,only a few people know that, and it's easy to airbrush out. Ian did sacrifice himself to save everyone from the elves, and pretty well did it, too; and of course once he's dead you can say whatever you like about why he did it and what he's now saying from the Blessed Afterlife.

That makes some sense because instead of saying "we were saved from the elves independently of Luminosita, by someone who was actually more powerful than He was," they say, "we were saved from the elves by the will of Luminosita, by one who served Him, in fact really was an avatar of Him, doing His will."

If the knowledge of Ian being the one who fought Luminosita is too broadly known, they could spin it as something like Jacob wrestling with God to become Israel. Or even..."Ian was there, with his Father Luminosita, trying to save the people of Veracia from an attack by the elves and the evil spirits who created them. Luminosita died in that attack. Ian brought vengeance to the elves and sacrificed himself, so that mankind would be saved."

[Graybeard]

He's already answered that question. It's Luminosita. After Ian kills Luminosita, the official Church doctrine becomes that Luminosita sacrificed Himself to save His people, and is going to be resurrected (as he doubtless will as soon as the Church puts enough mana in the battery). That's the "Jesus" role right there.

Ah, but that's too easy. I don't think Poe would have said we "won’t believe which character they peg" if it had been anything that obvious. We'll see.

[Alberich]

There is that. But since Ian -- my other choice as I explained above -- isn't on the poll list, they both fall under "someone else" anyway.

[Bytemite]

I thought it had already been said that the church had recast both Meji and Ian as Satan figures born from the same darkness that created the evil elves.

Probably combined them into one hermaphroditic character. Or if not that turned them into an unholy matrimony situation and started making jokes about Ian being into the underaged girls that in retrospect are actually pretty funny.

[Alberich]

If that's true then my guess is wrong (since I don't expect even a comic-book church to make "Son of Satan" into a hero).

But I figured it was a better guess than the Ensigerum guys, since the Church would prefer not to admit they existed (though if they're all dead I suppose they can be "fictionalized" now), or anyone who was still living after the Ian fight (baka fairies, Meji, Jon, etc.).

[Bytemite]

Yeah, I have some of those same complaints about all of those options myself. I've really only argued Chris before because he's not really Ensigerum, plus he's got this whole genre blind JRPG thing going on and now that he survived because he didn't go off to fight the elves with the other elves, he might run off and try to do more inept heroing.

[erejnion]

As far as I can guess... it's a matter of the after story. To peg any character as "Jesus", that character needs to reform said church, right? That being said, my guess would go "one of the native veracians", but... there are no alive named characters originally from Veracia, eh?

So, we know that Sara has a major role in the after story, and that she softens up significantly over the course of the years... so, yeah, I will bet on her for the lack of a better idea.

Meji / Ian - labeled as Satan duo.
elves / half-elves - I think we can all agree there's no chance
Bani - uhm. I kind of don't see her as a Jesus figure, which ironically makes her the second most probable after Sara
other named Tsuirakushiti characters - hell no, that's almost as bad as the elves
Polly - pegged as Maria, not Jesus, I call it
Jon and Sarine's kids - too awesome not to be true. half-elves, anyway, so nowai
Chris - too believable for Poe's wording. Also, that would be an almost completely straight play on this trope. So yeah, too obvious to be true.

Unless, of course, his character does a 360 turn.

[Alberich]

As far as I can guess... it's a matter of the after story. To peg any character as "Jesus", that character needs to reform said church, right? That being said, my guess would go "one of the native veracians", but... there are no alive named characters originally from Veracia, eh?

No, not necessarily. Given the way Poe treats religion - that person would only have to become a major mythical figure whose death is treated as a spiritually significant martyrdom, so that the Patriarch and the hierarchy can spin whatever doctrines suit them out of that person's fictional life and death. Remember, for a living character to serve that role, the hierarchy would have to let someone new take over -- and no one we're listing has the power or the pull to do that. Or else they'd have to make a mythic hero out of someone who wasn't even a member of the Church...and who was still alive and would deny Church doctrine at every turn.

In sum, a dead "Jesus" is a lot easier to manipulate than a living one. The "Jesus" version of whoever-it-is would not have to bear much resemblance to the actual living person; in fact, I'd expect Poe to extract maximum pathos out of that.

Technically all the Ensigerum were from inside Veracia, and it's never really specified what religion, if any, their "monkishness" is connected to. From the list in this poll, Paul and Anita are actually not bad choices, if the Church really wants to publicize that they existed at all. (And if the Ensigerum is now history, who knows? They might. They could serve a mythic role.)

Paul may be a better choice than Anita because (1) he's a dude, and (2) he was the usual envoy to the Patriarch, had friends and relatives in Emerylon, and was apparently well liked by the hierarchy. On t'other hand, Anita was voted "most evil character in the comic" back when that got polled and maybe Poe would have extra fun making her the Blessed Martyr Who Died For You, or whatever. It wouldn't be any harder than recasting Meji as Satan after she helped rebuild their city (if that's what Poe really said they were doing).

[Graybeard]

As far as I can guess... it's a matter of the after story. To peg any character as "Jesus", that character needs to reform said church, right? That being said, my guess would go "one of the native veracians", but... there are no alive named characters originally from Veracia, eh?

No, not necessarily. Given the way Poe treats religion - that person would only have to become a major mythical figure whose death is treated as a spiritually significant martyrdom, so that the Patriarch and the hierarchy can spin whatever doctrines suit them out of that person's fictional life and death.

Right. I think, however, that we need not interpret "Jesus figure" too literally. Note that contrary to Poe's own notes, I switched this from "Jesus figure" to "Christ figure" for the poll. There is a difference, and I'm guessing from context that his actual intent is for a "Christ figure" -- but that's a subtlety that probably need not concern us. (Or did I get that wrong, Impy?) Dying heroically for the Church would suffice.

On the other hand, if Poe really did grasp the subtle difference between a Jesus figure and a Christ figure, and deliberately chose the former, then "great teacher" may be the role we're after here. Who would that be? On the basis of generally available information, I don't know. (I will say that I choose my phrasing carefully in that last sentence, but no, I really don't know.)

Technically all the Ensigerum were from inside Veracia, and it's never really specified what religion, if any, their "monkishness" is connected to. From the list in this poll, Paul and Anita are actually not bad choices, if the Church really wants to publicize that they existed at all. (And if the Ensigerum is now history, who knows? They might. They could serve a mythic role.)

The Ensigerum's religious beliefs/practices/rites are kind of an interesting subject. We know from this moment in Sara's backstory that there's a temple in the village and that it is central to the Ensigerum's rituals, but we don't know who or what it's a temple of. It's pretty clear from the way Anita spoke to Jeramel that it has nothing to do with Luminosita, and the Veracian Church understands that as well as the Ensigerum does. So what is it? A remnant of the elves, and dedicated to either Anilis and/or Senilis or (what a thought) the Paedagogusi? Some other religious practice we know nothing about? Just another one of those questions about the Errant World that we won't know until a sequel, if then -- so let's send Poe lots of money so that he can get to work drawing one. (Seriously. I really want to see what comes next.)

Paul may be a better choice than Anita because (1) he's a dude, and (2) he was the usual envoy to the Patriarch, had friends and relatives in Emerylon, and was apparently well liked by the hierarchy. On t'other hand, Anita was voted "most evil character in the comic" back when that got polled and maybe Poe would have extra fun making her the Blessed Martyr Who Died For You, or whatever. It wouldn't be any harder than recasting Meji as Satan after she helped rebuild their city (if that's what Poe really said they were doing).

I don't think they were necessarily "recasting Meji as Satan" during the rebuilding, they just weren't exactly welcoming her with open arms -- which is understandable, IMO, since it was highfalutin magic that destroyed the city to begin with. In fact, the only reason I didn't include Meji as one of the poll choices was that it would be believable for her to play a great-teacher role; indeed, it would be bordering on obvious, given that she's wandering the world teaching and rebuilding things.