2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

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Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby erewhon » April 23rd, 2008, 3:17 am

The book An Intimate History of Killing is a good place to start for the psychology of martial murder.

Ian, though, is a civilian. He has no sanction from another group. He just wants to start at a and get to b and I don't think anyone in his way has a chance.
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Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby BloodHenge » April 23rd, 2008, 3:55 am

Sareth wrote:I still think that Ian's father was not, in fact, killed by the elves but instead is simply not important enough to the plot to mention. The reason is simply this: Ian hasn't mentioned elves killing him. Considering that Ian is The All Original Emo Kid, and prone to trotting out every woe and sadness he and the errants have ever suffered at the hands of the elves, the fact his father dying at the hands of one seems like a tell tale that such never occured. But that is simply conjecture on my part.

Well, something unfortunate happened to him, because he wasn't around to keep Mrs. Samael from burning down the house. Either he's dead, or he ran off, or he's on a really long business trip, or he was such a dick that he was thrown out. Whatever happened-- and however it happened-- Ian would have plenty of reason to complain. But, for whatever reason, he hasn't.
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Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Boss Out of Town » April 23rd, 2008, 11:36 am

erewhon wrote:The book An Intimate History of Killing is a good place to start for the psychology of martial murder.
Ian, though, is a civilian. He has no sanction from another group. He just wants to start at a and get to b and I don't think anyone in his way has a chance.

Again, that thing about applying 20th Century Western liberal legalisms to a extra-legal adventure story.

I don't recall Samwise Gamgee signing any enlistment papers or going to boot camp. His companions cheered him when he killed his first orc.

Off the fantasy track, when the Cheyenne women cheered for their men going off to take on "Yellowhair", Custer, then used knives and hatchets to finish off the wounded scattered on that barren hill above the Little Big Horn, no one was checking their paperwork to see if they were non-combatants. That camp in Montana was their Santurial, and, as far as they knew, those horsemen were seeking out their last refuge to kill them all. Generally, history cuts you a little slack in that situation.
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Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby jackfrost » April 23rd, 2008, 6:04 pm

Tiamat wrote:
jackfrost wrote:3,) Stop throwing around the word GENOCIDE!. He isn't killing anyone who hasn't attacked him yet. Until he decides to round up a bunch of people who aren't attacking him (or those he needs to protect, such as his girlfriend), he isn't committing GENOCIDE!. Just because the elves have a low population does not make it GENOCIDE!.


Ian very nearly wiped Veracia from the face of the Earth because he wanted to know where the Elven Hole in the Ground was. I'm pretty damned sure he didn't want to borrow a cup of sugar. The fact that he's not actively engaged in hunting them down with Meji in tow doesn't mean that if he gets her and Jon out he's not going to march right back in and kill them all. GENOCIDE! is, in fact, a stated goal, and it's not one he ever seemed to give up, either.


Two minor points with this...

Yes, he did cause severe damage to Veracia. But he didn't do it intentionally, it was caused by the power released when Luminosita (sp?) was dispelled... AFTER attacking Ian.

Had the church (never a bastion of restraint, usually) not awoken their supreme instrument of divine justice (or tool) to deal with the intruder, it is unlikely anyone (except some guards, had they tried to interfere) would have been hurt.

From a logical point of view, even if Ian had been in perfect mental health at that moment, no one can really sit here and say "he knew that he was going to blow up the city by dispelling his attacker." Nothing in Ian's previous experience could have come close to showing him the explosive aftermath (IMO, of course).

Nothing he has done (as of yet) points to him considering causing "the deliberate and systematic destruction of an entire people who belong to one racial, political, cultural or religious group." aka, GENOCIDE!. Its not his fault theres so few elves and they keep attacking him...

Secondly, once he has accomplished something he doesn't seem to stick around... he also helped all those civilians with his powers back in his hometown. I just don't see him rescuing everyone, escaping from the elf city, and then when everyone is safe turning around an annihilating them. After all, with his power, he could just level everything in site right now...
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Re: 2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby mindstalk » April 23rd, 2008, 6:59 pm

This has been debunked already.
http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2007-07-27
Ian attacked first, damaging buildings (which can, you know, kill people). True, most of the damage to Emerylon happened after Ian dispelled Luminosita, which had been summoned because Ian was, well, attacking buildings. But Ian was attacking.

If the initial lightning storm was because Ian can't control his power well, that's hardly a reassuring thought. Either he's a hostile threat or a random uncontrolled threat.
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Re: 2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby DarkIntruder » April 23rd, 2008, 7:49 pm

Also, just to point out, Ian did agree to help "eradicate the elves".

http://www.errantstory.com/comic.php?date=2008-01-23

Oxford English Dictionary wrote:eradicate:
/iraddikayt/

• verb remove or destroy completely.

— DERIVATIVES eradication noun eradicator noun.

— ORIGIN Latin eradicare ‘tear up by the roots’, from radix ‘root’.





If that's not a decision to attempt GENOCIDE!, then I'm not really sure what is.
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Re: 2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Boss Out of Town » April 23rd, 2008, 10:12 pm

DarkIntruder wrote:Also, just to point out, Ian did agree to help "eradicate the elves".

If that's not a decision to attempt GENOCIDE!, then I'm not really sure what is.

Yep. That sort of thing happens when you attempt to exterminate a people and they suddenly find the power to fight back. They might decide to kill all of you as retribution and/or as a practical solution to the problem of preventing their further extermination. Given that there are so few surviving half-elves, Ian thus far sees no end to the Elvish threat other then killing them all. Even one surviving ranger could potentially wipe out Santurial.

Ian's limited time spent experimenting with his powers hasn't told him exactly how much power he has, how long he will have it, how he could use it to put up an effective ward around himself and his people, and whether or not the power is going to devour him or drive him insane. So, he is taking direct action.

The key point, as others have noted, is how Ian reacts when the opportunity arises to remove the threat to the half-elves without killing off all the Elves. That "moment of truth" is still a long way off.
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Re: 2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby BloodHenge » April 24th, 2008, 12:16 am

Maybe not as long as you think. He's looking for Jon, who is in the room with what appears to be the current governing body of the Elves. If they don't have the authority to offer a truce, I don't know who does.
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Re: 2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Sareth » April 24th, 2008, 8:03 am

There is that, Bloodhenge, yes. However that begs the question, will a promise made by the elven leadership under duress be something that Ian is willing to trust to last? Millennia of genocidal behavior on the part of the elves, and suddenly a promise extracted upon pain of bringing a mountain down on their last city is supposed to be trusted? Especially when the one doing the extracting is exhibiting signs of the behavior that purportedly caused the GENOCIDE! in the first place? I'm not sure either group would trust the other long enough to get Ian out of the mountain, let alone long enough for it to be meaningful.
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Re: 2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Tiamat » April 24th, 2008, 8:22 am

I like the new filter on the word 'geno-cide' (Hyphen added to escape the filter). It amuses me.

jackfrost wrote:Two minor points with this...

Yes, he did cause severe damage to Veracia. But he didn't do it intentionally, it was caused by the power released when Luminosita (sp?) was dispelled... AFTER attacking Ian.


As someone before me pointed out, I already addressed this in another thread. Ian showed up and caused a thunderstorm with bolts powerful enough to shatter streets. If you look at how many bolts are around Ian in some of the frames, these things are hitting the ground at a rate of one or two per second. Since the SUM TOTAL OF THE MAGES IN THE GIANT FLOATING MAGE CITY can't do that, I'm pretty sure the Veracian Church was pretty fucking desperate.

jackfrost wrote:Nothing he has done (as of yet) points to him considering causing "the deliberate and systematic destruction of an entire people who belong to one racial, political, cultural or religious group." aka, GENOCIDE!!. Its not his fault theres so few elves and they keep attacking him...

Secondly, once he has accomplished something he doesn't seem to stick around... he also helped all those civilians with his powers back in his hometown. I just don't see him rescuing everyone, escaping from the elf city, and then when everyone is safe turning around an annihilating them. After all, with his power, he could just level everything in site right now...


You missed this point of my post entirely, which was in fact the actual point. Ian destroyed a city to find the elves. What do you think he planned to do when he got there? The fact that GENOCIDE! is not his immediate short-term goal does not mean his long-term goals have changed in the slightest.

And he wouldn't just level the whole city because he doesn't know where Jon is yet and a mountain falling on top of him would kill him.
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