2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

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2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Pillaroforder » March 30th, 2009, 1:33 am

Duel to follow. Didn't I call it? Yes I did.

I think there were many who said elves would see this as a betrayal, or was that in regard to Bani's actions?

BTW, to me 'at least not over this' sounds like they have other skeletons in the closet as well and Sarna would have cause to do this a long time ago already.
Will there be more exposition to come?
Last edited by Pillaroforder on March 30th, 2009, 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Talancir » March 30th, 2009, 1:37 am

trying to dig myself out of this huge freaking hole crew checking in.

oh, such a shame. I'm pretty sure that was sarna in the flashback way back when sarine was training up the old ensigerum, when she had longer hair... http://www.errantstory.com/comic.php?date=2004-11-03

so yes, it's a shame that it's come to this.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Pillaroforder » March 30th, 2009, 1:43 am

Talancir wrote:I'm pretty sure that was sarna in the flashback way back when sarine was training up the old ensigerum, when she had longer hair... http://www.errantstory.com/comic.php?date=2004-11-03


Yes, I think it's safe to say that.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby RubberBandMan » March 30th, 2009, 1:50 am

Well, it has been awhile since we've had hot elf-on-elf action. And with Jon babysitting the two teenagers, he won't show up to save Sarine I think.

Sarna has the longer reach with that sword, and very impressive armor I would think, since Sarine traded off safety for stealth in the larger world, while Sarna is in combat gear, minus the mask.

On the other hand, Sarine has some nice plot armor. What happens if Sarine croaks it, and Jon decides to just say "fuckit!" and leave before everyone else there dies?
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Sareth » March 30th, 2009, 2:09 am

Pillaroforder wrote:I think there were many who said elves would see this as a betrayal, or was that in regard to Bani's actions?


Both. Sarine revealed a secret military op, with details, to a nation with whom the elves had just had a MAJOR international incident. It may be for the right reason from our perspectives (attempting to stop something bad from happening) but right or wrong, it was treasonous. Sarna's reaction was quite predictable.

This looks like it could be pretty bad. We don't actually have a gauge as to whether Sarine or Sarna is the better fighter (aside from knowing that Sarine is a protagonist and plots like protagonists.) But from the comments made and expressions seen, Sarna has a righteous fury, and Sarine looks horrified and saddened. Sarna is going to be going all out, and Sarine is running the risk of flinching.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Neko7 » March 30th, 2009, 3:35 am

As much as I was again the war in Iraq (and I was in the US when that happen, you can imagin the picture) I always finded pathetic some of those people who believed no matter what that reason and knowlegde of the situation would make people stop or choose listenning and consider the "wrong" of their way.
. Same kind of people who trully believed that going in bagdad would prevent the US to attack because they were/are US cityzen and the army/gov would not dear to attack the city with some of their cityzen inside.
. It's been a long time I have accept the idea that when people have made their decision, reason is one of the least of their concern, and only pressure from a strongest/largest power and immediate treat of the same lvl from antoher group would oblige them to change their course of action.
. As much as those people wanted to see themself as great and couragous people, I just finded them pathetic to believe that their selfish little ass and ego would be enought to curve the road of their country, just because they want to, without looking for true pressure mean.


Why am I telling that here?? Because I find exactly this kind of thinking in Sarine, and no matter how sincere or how good willed she is, if she moved one minut out of her desesperat blindness of "the reason will push them to stop" for a more cinical: their is no more deafth than someone who don't want to hear, and no more blind than someone who don't want to see; she would avoid creating more problem than bringing solution, for her and the others.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Slamlander » March 30th, 2009, 6:56 am

Neko7: Someone once gave b the following formula

War is the absence of reason; War = Irrationality
Insanity = Irrationality
Therefore War = Insanity.

I have observed the same phenomenon
* Viet Nam War (US)
* The Cold War
* Granada
* Falkland Islands
* Afghanistan (RU)
* Desert Storm (US led coalition)
* Afghanistan (US led coalition)
* Iraq (Bush's War)

The sentiment of war does not allow reason. Those who insist on reason are often denounced as traitors, whether they actually are or not. That is the nature of the war sentiment.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Sareth » March 30th, 2009, 7:30 am

Allow me to weigh in as a veteran with three combat tours under his belt.

War is a great evil.

I'll say it again.

War is a great evil.

The problem is, sometimes (rarely, but it does happen) it's the least evil option on a list with no good options.

The vast majority of wars have been flat out bad ideas. One could argue that one side was defending itself, but really, things like the 30 Years War, the 100 Years War, the Crimean War, the Napoleonic Wars, the First World War, Viet Nam... Both sides were looking for an excuse, there was no defending themselves going on.

But then you get a war like World War II. It was horrible. It was awful. It was a travesty. It was a horrific blight that wiped out some of the best of a generation of young men (and plenty of women as well, combatants or no) and devestated beautiful countries. But if the alternative would have been to allow Adolph Hitler and the Nazis to dominate all of Europe?

Least evil option. Not fighting Germany would have been worse.

But just because War is almost never justifiable, does not mean there's no reason behind it. The assertion "War is the absence of reason" isn't correct, sadly. War is actually a very rational thing... for everyone not directly involved in the actual fighting. To the grunt on the ground, the little girl hiding in her celler as a battle wages over head, the officer sending his men in to die, war often seems to be very short on reason. But to the great magnates, the great statesmen, the movers and shakers of nations, war makes far, far too much sense. It is a tool they can use to extend their power and make money. Well, unless you lose. Victorious nations, and the powerful men supplying the arms and supplies to the war machine, have typically made vast fortunes. Every bullet sold, every gun made, every meal provided, someone makes money off that. New provinces and territories result in further raw resources, further populations to tax, draft, and appoint people over. And victorious battles make for legends that lead to political clout. There's a reason so many U.S. Presidents have been "War Heroes."

War, disgustingly, makes a LOT of sense... if you aren't the one actually fighting it. If it didn't make sense and have reason behind it, no one would risk it.

/rant off.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby Graybeard » March 30th, 2009, 8:47 am

Sareth wrote:Allow me to weigh in as a veteran with three combat tours under his belt.

War is a great evil.

I'll say it again.

War is a great evil.

The problem is, sometimes (rarely, but it does happen) it's the least evil option on a list with no good options.

Well said.

There is, however, a very important point here that Sarna is missing. Sarine is TELLING her about the airships. Sarine wants the airships stopped too. Now why would an enemy of the elves do that?

Trying to extrapolate from real-world conflict to what's happening here is probably unhelpful, if inevitable. There has never, at least to my knowledge, been a real-world situation in which two powerful nations go to war over an issue where both sides feel justified but are clearly wrong -- and where a one-human-sized third party KNOWS they are both wrong, sees the horrifying danger posed by yet a different party, and even more improbable, has access to the centers of power on both sides to try to get them to see things her way. That just doesn't happen in the real world. Consider World War II, which many historians call "the last just war." Sarine isn't doing the equivalent of trying to "mediate" between England and Germany circa 1941 (i.e., after they're already at war) while back-stabbing both, which might be a contemptible activity depending on your perspective. (History does not view Rudolf Hess very favorably.) Rather, she's more in a position of single-handedly trying to keep the British and French militaries from destroying each other BEFORE the war starts -- which, had it occurred in the real world, would have had unspeakably ghastly consequences for civilization. But that was never a possibility in the real world.
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Re: 2008-03-30 Please don't, at least not over this!

Postby runic » March 30th, 2009, 10:43 am

Graybeard wrote:Well said.

There is, however, a very important point here that Sarna is missing. Sarine is TELLING her about the airships. Sarine wants the airships stopped too. Now why would an enemy of the elves do that?


Yeah, but it would seem that sarine has crossed the rubicon after being warned.

as for war and rhyme or reason...

war is hell and is mankind at its worst, so yeah some times it makes sense. its just that there being a purpose or rationalization is besides the point
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