2014-01-26: Inaction Hero

Follow the adventures of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Fran and Naga in this all-new humorous entry to the growing Poeverse.
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Forrest
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Re: 2014-01-26: Inaction Hero

Post by Forrest »

BloodHenge wrote:That's an interesting idea, Forrest, but it would be difficult to frame as anything other than an alien conquest. If he doesn't really understand government, I can't see him only enforcing local laws (since social injustice is actually legally mandated in some places). Since he's imposing his own morality on some nations, I don't see any good in-universe reason for his moral code to match up exactly with the laws of any specific country, so that basically leaves him enforcing his own legal code globally at the metaphorical point of a sword. Any form of government other than an absolute dictatorship with him at the head would become functionally impossible, because nobody could enforce any laws he didn't endorse.
I don't think it would really look like an alien conquest if he wasn't pervasively and proactively interfering with everything everyone does everywhere. If he just responds to cries for help, evaluates whether the person asking for his help really deserves it (so no "help Superguy, I was just minding my own business raping this woman when she pulled a gun on me! You have to stop her!"), resolves the situation with as minimal intervention as possible, and then flies off again to mind his own business.

If he could do that for every single conflict any humans have, then yeah, any kind of enforcement of anything would require he approve of it (because otherwise he would come to the defense of the person being enforced-upon), but even that wouldn't really seem like conquest, so long as he's not making positive demands of the people of Earth; he's could just be kind of like "goddamnit people, play nice with each other, I'm tired of having to break up your fights all the time!"

Even if he couldn't (or didn't) do that for every single conflict, if he ever did it for any conflict between someone and an agent of a state, he would have the whole state come down on him like a ton of bricks... which is bad for the state because he is personally a gigaton of bricks, so they lose. So his presence would likely disrupt the existence of states on Earth, even if he didn't make a point of dismantling them per se. They would just throw self-destructive hissy fits over the existence of someone who doesn't obey them, to their own doom.
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Re: 2014-01-26: Inaction Hero

Post by dark_lord_zagato »

Forrest wrote:if he ever did it for any conflict between someone and an agent of a state, he would have the whole state come down on him like a ton of bricks... which is bad for the state because he is personally a gigaton of bricks, so they lose. So his presence would likely disrupt the existence of states on Earth, even if he didn't make a point of dismantling them per se. They would just throw self-destructive hissy fits over the existence of someone who doesn't obey them, to their own doom.
This needs to become an actual TV or comic series. I'd definitely watch it.

Let's say this Superguy inadvertently topples a government that refuses to back down and play nice. The problem is that this government not only murders and imprisons innocent people, but it also employs 50% to 80% of the population with jobs that range from police and military to school teachers and firemen, maintenance workers for public utilities, and even jobs that are normally private sector like janitors. Would he have some sort of breakdown if his actions lead to rioting due to the sudden sharp increase in poverty? Could he help these people rebuild their lives? Maybe he learns what the end result of his intervention will be before doing anything. In that case, would he still be able to stop the execution of an innocent man who was wrongly convicted by corrupt officials and sentenced to death?
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Re: 2014-01-26: Inaction Hero

Post by BloodHenge »

It's still important to set down solid criteria regarding who "deserves" help, in his opinion. Would he intervene only in violent crimes, or also physical and intellectual property crimes? What kinds of imprisonment, if any, would he consider wrongful? What are his views on taxation? Health care?

I still think it's pretty much inevitable that he will come into conflict with some governments frequently, and likely that he will come into conflict with every government occasionally. Even if he doesn't intervene in every conflict, he may still intervene in enough conflicts of certain types that certain laws become functionally unenforceable, once the risk that he might intervene becomes unacceptable. I could also envision conflict with quite a few corporations.

Is there any way to influence his actions? Debate? Peaceful protest? What, if anything, does he do about recidivism?

It's an interesting idea, but it would take a lot of thought and care to implement if you actually want to explore social implications.
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Re: 2014-01-26: Inaction Hero

Post by Forrest »

BloodHenge wrote:It's still important to set down solid criteria regarding who "deserves" help, in his opinion. Would he intervene only in violent crimes, or also physical and intellectual property crimes? What kinds of imprisonment, if any, would he consider wrongful? What are his views on taxation? Health care?
Violent crime is the thing I was thinking of first and foremost. Physical [private] property could conceivably go either way, but since this is my idea I'll declare that yes, he recognizes some kind of rights to physical property. (These may not flesh out to exactly the bundle of legal rights we attach to the notion of "property", but at least on the simple level of "that things is yours, this thing is mine, it's wrong if you take something that's mine or vice versa", I'd say yes).

"Intellectual property" and taxes are both unintelligible without the concept of government to build them on, so since he doesn't have that concept, he wouldn't recognize anything about such issues. Of course that doesn't become a problem until someone refuses to {pay taxes|refrain from copying something} and exhausts all of their legal warnings to do so and eventually has a warrant put out for their arrest and men with guns show up at their door to abduct them (as he would see it), at which point he might show up to protect them and ask the armed men "Who did he harm that he deserves the punishment you seek to mete out?"

I'm not sure what health care has to do with anything other than just being one of many services which can be tax-funded. It's not like he's going to smash into a doctor's office and say "Stop! You can't perform that operation, you're being paid with money which via a long indirect route stems ultimately from an act of theft!" (as he would see it). He would just focus on the theft. He's not going to accost road workers paving highways who get paid with tax money either.
I still think it's pretty much inevitable that he will come into conflict with some governments frequently, and likely that he will come into conflict with every government occasionally. Even if he doesn't intervene in every conflict, he may still intervene in enough conflicts of certain types that certain laws become functionally unenforceable, once the risk that he might intervene becomes unacceptable.
Well yeah, that's the whole appeal of the idea -- the fact that someone who would otherwise be called a hero without qualification, could suddenly become extremely controversial if he saves someone from an aggressor that many other people think has a right to aggress at their whim. The only thing I was arguing about was that that doesn't have to be portrayed as an "alien conquest". Not recognizing another's authority is not the same thing as setting yourself up as another authority. Just because I won't be your slave -- or let you make anyone else your slave -- doesn't mean I fancy myself your master.

I will admit that the reason I personally find this idea so appealing is that I am a philosophical anarchist myself, which means I see things as this hypothetical character would: "states" are fictions, there are just masses of normatively equal people interacting, none of them with any right to rule or duty to obey each other. It seems like most people in most societies have the idea so thoroughly ingrained into them that someone is in charge and different rules apply to them that they just can't imagine actually treating everybody as complete equals and ignoring any rationalizations about "it's ok, he's a cop" or whatever. So I would love to see a story told through the eyes of a character for whom those kinds of distinctions are completely alien -- maybe even set it in some kind of future setting where clothes are different enough that we the audience can't identify supposed authority figures on sight either -- so when organized groups of people start acting like they can command people to do things and punish them if they disobey, they just look to him like a street gang or a mafia, and get treated accordingly.

Actually, maybe this would be a story better told in a purely textual medium. That way, what we "see" are the hero's descriptions of things through alien eyes. We don't see a cop arresting somebody from their house for tax evasion; we see, through his eyes, an armed abduction of someone from their home, and then hear through his ears the abductor justifying his actions by saying this guy owes them money, not because he stole it or something, but because it's their turf and everybody who lives there has to pay up, and so on. Literal descriptions of things as seen by someone who doesn't have our comfortable euphemisms (as he would call them) like "police" and "taxes", so the audience has to slowly piece together from these descriptions of other people's reactions to the hero that the apparent bad guys he's fighting are the people we would usually give a free pass under such terms. And then bam, the readers have to go back and reinterpret the whole story in that light, and the whole world in the light of the story's perspective on it.

Maybe even begin with him crash-landing in his alien-pod and seeing ordinary Earth things through alien eyes before taking on human form. He wanders about, having weird awkward interactions with the locals for a while, trying to get the hang of passing as a human, trying to mimic our language. Then maybe he stumbles across an obvious crime -- a woman is about to be raped in an alleyway or something -- and steps in to help. She sees his awkwardness and mutism and thinks that maybe he's retarded or something, but he seems harmless, and he did just save her, so she takes him home -- let's say she has a husband or boyfriend or something and avoid awkward unnecessary romantic implications here. They let him crash there for a bit while they try to figure out who he is and where he's supposed to go, while he slowly starts getting the hang of acting and speaking like a human, and maybe picks up tiny bits of English. There turns out to be some kind of gang problem in their neighborhood, real obvious violence, and he recognizes it as such and steps in to protect his newfound friends and their neighbors.

He becomes the local hero. Everybody loves him, but they still have no idea who he is or where he's supposed to be. (Let's say, since this is a bad neighborhood, that these aren't the kind of people who are going to go to the police for help -- maybe they're harmless drug users or something like that, non-violent criminals). Then one day he witnesses armed men trying to abduct one of the neighbors from out of their house -- the aforementioned tax-evasion arrest -- and that's when shit starts to get weird. By now he understands English enough to talk about these kinds of things, but when people try to explain things like police and taxes to him, he has no concepts that correspond to those words -- he just sees an armed gang shaking people down for money. Lots of debate can ensue, and action, and so on, as nobody can present a solid justification for state authority from the ground up for someone who has never heard of anything like this idea before, and the supposed authorities violently insist that he submit whether or not any solid justification has been presented.

Maybe people try different approaches -- ala Hobbes, Locke, Roussea, etc, an outline of a political philosophy course's different theories of political legitimacy, though probably not under those names for the sake of audience approachability. Though I'm not sure how to work in time for people trying to talk to him, because I think realistically, as soon as he tried to stop two cops from making an arrest, he'd be under increasingly escalated levels of attack until the whole U.S. military had shot its wad trying to take him down while he's just wondering what the hell he did to piss so many people off. Police and military don't explain to you why they're attacking until you're subdued and they're back in control -- and since he can't be subdued, nobody would ever talk to him. Maybe the talking happens afterward, after American civilization has imploded itself in a shit fit over one guy trying to save someone. The U.S. is just one country after all, there's plenty of story that can still happen after that. Maybe the collapsed state of America is what leads him to become a conventional superhero, since now there's nobody else fighting crime -- and probably a lot of local warlords looking to step up their own gangsstates around the country. And a lot of other countries too, probably wondering what the hell just happened to the U.S. and who is responsible.
Is there any way to influence his actions? Debate? Peaceful protest? What, if anything, does he do about recidivism?
I would want him to be an open-minded, reasonable character who can be talked to. He doesn't just drop in, declare "you're the bad guy!" and start beating people up. He sees a conflict, asks what the problem here is, talks to people, figures out who did what, and whether that was wrong or not -- and the "was that wrong or not" is just as open to new information as "did he do it or not". (This is actually how I wish courts were run, with the law on trial as much as the facts).

For example, in the idea about him stopping two cops from arresting someone for tax evasion, I don't see him coming in swinging. I picture him jumping in to the arrestee's defense, and asking the cops to back off of justify themselves. Of course they won't be able to, but that doesn't mean he starts beating them up -- he just keeps questioning their authority and standing between them and the neighbor. These being just beat cops, the conversation is not likely to get very deep or philosophical, and before long it will probably just be "stand aside sir or you'll be under arrest as well" (if not immediately "you are under arrest for interfering in police business"), and then there's "no", and then the handcuffs come out, and then he's resisting arrest, and then there's guns, and then there's broken guns, and then there's calling for backup, and then there's SWAT and the National Guard and before you know it we've got air strikes and maybe even nukes because the military has found something it can't subdue and that just can't be allowed to continue existing.

Protests should definitely get his attention, get him listening, but I wouldn't want them to actually sway his opinions just by the fact of their existence -- large numbers of people can be simultaneously wrong about things easily.
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Re: 2014-01-26: Inaction Hero

Post by BloodHenge »

I mention health care because a lot of life-saving treatments (both medicines and procedures) are sold for several times their cost. As altruistic as he appears to be, I was wondering what he would think of someone who has the capacity to save a life, but chooses not to do so because he doesn't benefit enough.

Police do negotiate on occasion. They have officers specifically trained for it. They usually save it for hostage situations, but unprecedented problems call for unprecedented solutions.

Even if the military does get involved, I don't see the conflict destroying the entire United States. It is a rather large place. I don't imagine the battle would destroy much more than a large city before someone decides that taking him out isn't worth the cost. Even if the widespread collateral damage convinced him that our government was too dangerous to continue to exist, destroying the whole thing would just take too long for one individual to accomplish. (Or, if he could do it that fast, I'm not sure how he could interact socially with humans.)

But suppose he does tear down the entire US government as well as any fiefdoms that spring up to replace it. How is that not conquest, when he freely dictates what we, as a people, are not permitted to do? Well, I suppose it could instead be perceived as an extensive terrorist campaign, but is that really any better than conquest?

I actually agree with you that the rich and powerful are just people like me who ought to be held accountable for their wrongdoings. However, in a democratic government, elected officials (and, by extension, their appointees) are ostensibly hired to interpret and enforce the will of the public, and I can see the office itself commanding a certain degree of respect even if the person holding it doesn't. That doesn't mean a cop, for instance, can do literally whatever he wants, but I believe it ought to accord him certain special rights and privileges in the pursuit of his duty, so long as he pursues it within the proper bounds.
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Re: 2014-01-26: Inaction Hero

Post by taltamir »

BloodHenge wrote:I mention health care because a lot of life-saving treatments (both medicines and procedures) are sold for several times their cost. As altruistic as he appears to be, I was wondering what he would think of someone who has the capacity to save a life, but chooses not to do so because he doesn't benefit enough.
Cost to manufacture maybe, but what about the cost of inventing? Especially because the price has to finance future development as well as failed development attempts that didn't lead to anything.

Also there is scarcity of an artificial resource, this isn't something like land you can fight over, you punish people for charging too much, then they will stop producing and now you have even LESS than before.

Also government oversight is a huge part of why its so expensive and limited availability. Look at the "supplement" market which is unregulated, its very cheap and widely available. On the downside, the supplement market is full of snake oil scams that do nothing or actually harm you.
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