2008-04-21 - Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

For talking about the plot, the art, the dialogue, the characters, the site, and the individual updates...

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Sareth » April 22nd, 2008, 8:51 am

Jackfrost and Boss Out Of Town have basically stated, more eloquently than I ever could, my view of this.

Forget Ian escalating things unnecessarily. Everything he has seen and knows both in his life in exile, and in his experiences since leaving on his quest state he is badly outnumbered in a war for the very survival of everyone he has known and loved. Under such circumstances, you can forget being the cowboy wearing the white hat. You shoot first, because otherwise they only have to not miss the first time once. You refuse to fight fair, because fair gives them a 50-50 chance of killing you, and they have a lot more lives at their disposal. And yes, if there's a race that everything you've seen tells you they are determined to kill your entire population, you kill them first. Is it nice? Is it ethical? Is it moral? No, not really. But it's the practical response.

Ian has seen NO evidence giving him any hope that there might be peaceful options. Hes seen Sarine only under circumstances where, as far as he could tell, she may well have been one of Meji's attackers. And the fact Meji was alive in the dungeon and not dead could merely have indicated she had some intelligence value to them they hadn't yet gotten, and she would die the moment they had that info.

His responses, externally, knowing what we know may seem a bit extreme, but looked at from the inside of his information set? He's doing his best to survive, not just individually, but as a species. In fact, the point that he's taking the time to attempt to help Jon, a known rival for Meji's affection (at least in his own mind) and someone not of his species, even at the risk of capture and death at the hands of the elves speaks well of him. With as much power as he has at his disposal, he could easily have told Meji, "Gee, it's too bad about your human boy toy, but it's too risky, we have to go." Meji would have been pissed, but honestly, what would she have been able to do? He has the power to whisk her away even if she resisted. The fact he IS choosing to rescue Jon, on the other hand, shows Ian does have SOME sense of obligation, debt, gratitude, and responsibility. And that's good sign.

As for Ian's dad, I recall exactly 0 commentary about him. This leads me to conclude that we can't even speculate on him. Yes, he could be a trophy hanging on some ranger's wall somewhere. He could be alive and well in Santuriel and choosing to have nothing to do with his psycho ex. It could be that Ian and his sister were the results of one night stands. Maybe aliens impregnated mama during experimentation. Really, Poe has chosen to tell us nothing about the man, so I presume it to mean there's nothing meaningful to say there.
User avatar
Sareth
RPG All-Star
 
Posts: 2604
Joined: August 23rd, 2007, 8:54 pm

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Graybeard » April 22nd, 2008, 9:05 am

Kian wrote:I've held for some time now the belief that the half-elfs are almost as bad as the elves in their response to errancy. I couldn't help but notice that Santuariel didn't have mentally unbalanced errants. they had all sorts of deformed and physically unfit half-elfs, but none that were psychotic like the guy Sarine decapitated at the beggining. The closest was Ian's mom, and I get the feeling that they kept her around because she didn't show to be a danger to others. ntil she set the house on fire anyway.


Ian's mom definitely qualifies as "mentally unbalanced" in my book. Besides, what do you want them to do with the homicidally psychotic and completely untreatable (that being one of the hallmarks of Errantcy, after all)? Principled statements about equal rights, dignity, etc., have certain practical shortcomings when the people you're according those rights have a congenital tendency to kill others that you can't do anything about.

Kian wrote:My own whacked out conspiracy theory is that the half-elfs exile the errants that become crazy, so that the humans have to deal with them. We know there are at least a few, we know they weren't in Santuariel (or Ian would have healed them first, but everyone that went to the healing tent was only deformed, not crazy), and we know the rangers off them every once in a while. Given that Santuariel must be the only source of half-elfs, the conclusion follows that they kick them out when they become dangerous. So yeah, the elves might kill them, but the half-elfs don't do anything to clean up the mess they make and the ones that end up paying for the crazy they let roam around the world are the humans unlucky enough to fire them up.


We don't know that. Small sample size and all. What evidence is there that the homicidally psychotic Santuarielites aren't just locked up in an asylum somewhere in Santuariel?

Sareth wrote:As for Ian's dad, I recall exactly 0 commentary about him. This leads me to conclude that we can't even speculate on him. Yes, he could be a trophy hanging on some ranger's wall somewhere. He could be alive and well in Santuriel and choosing to have nothing to do with his psycho ex. It could be that Ian and his sister were the results of one night stands. Maybe aliens impregnated mama during experimentation. Really, Poe has chosen to tell us nothing about the man, so I presume it to mean there's nothing meaningful to say there.


Nor about any other fathers in the entire story, except for Chris' and Miyo's. This has always struck me as ... odd.
----
Image
Because old is wise, does good, and above all, kicks ass.
User avatar
Graybeard
The Heretical Admin
 
Posts: 6883
Joined: August 20th, 2007, 8:26 am
Location: Nuevo Mexico y Colorado, Estados Unidos

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby DarkIntruder » April 22nd, 2008, 9:12 am

Okay, first of all I'd just like to point out that everything that has been said about how Ian is justified in acting the way he is, is pretty much spot on, at least from my view. We know that not all of the elves are bad, but from Ian's perspective, all he's seen is a race collectively bent on annihilating him and all his friends, without mercy. Thus, from his point of view, his actions are both justified, and even necessary. Not exactly moral, or "right", but as Sareth said, in war, there is no such thing as "fair". There is only what needs to be done in order for you to live.


Not saying I necessarily like this mindset, but it's the truth.


Sareth wrote:As for Ian's dad, I recall exactly 0 commentary about him. This leads me to conclude that we can't even speculate on him. Yes, he could be a trophy hanging on some ranger's wall somewhere. He could be alive and well in Santuriel and choosing to have nothing to do with his psycho ex. It could be that Ian and his sister were the results of one night stands. Maybe aliens impregnated mama during experimentation. Really, Poe has chosen to tell us nothing about the man, so I presume it to mean there's nothing meaningful to say there.


Well, I wouldn't say that Ian's father has no part to play in this. The fact that he isn't there means that something must have happened to him. The simplest explanation would be that he was human, and died. But there are many other possibilities. I think we might hear something about him in the future.
User avatar
DarkIntruder
Mage/Priest War Veteran
 
Posts: 433
Joined: August 29th, 2007, 8:29 am
Location: Frigid wastes of Southern Ontario

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Kian » April 22nd, 2008, 9:46 am

Graybeard wrote:
Kian wrote:I've held for some time now the belief that the half-elfs are almost as bad as the elves in their response to errancy. I couldn't help but notice that Santuariel didn't have mentally unbalanced errants. they had all sorts of deformed and physically unfit half-elfs, but none that were psychotic like the guy Sarine decapitated at the beggining. The closest was Ian's mom, and I get the feeling that they kept her around because she didn't show to be a danger to others. ntil she set the house on fire anyway.


Ian's mom definitely qualifies as "mentally unbalanced" in my book. Besides, what do you want them to do with the homicidally psychotic and completely untreatable (that being one of the hallmarks of Errantcy, after all)? Principled statements about equal rights, dignity, etc., have certain practical shortcomings when the people you're according those rights have a congenital tendency to kill others that you can't do anything about.


I answered the part about Ian's mom in the quote you quoted. I bolded it to make it stand out there. As for what I expect them to do about the errants? No idea, but they really have no grounds to complain about the elves killing them if they don't have a humane answer themselves. The elves at least had an answer, as awful as it was. The half-elfs, if my guess is accurate, would not want them to be killed but wouldn't want to look after them to ensure they don't kill others eithers. If you belong to a race that has a well documented tendency to make psycho killers, it's your duty to either choose not to have children, or take responsibility for the psychos you sire.

Graybeard wrote:
Kian wrote:My own whacked out conspiracy theory is that the half-elfs exile the errants that become crazy, so that the humans have to deal with them. We know there are at least a few, we know they weren't in Santuariel (or Ian would have healed them first, but everyone that went to the healing tent was only deformed, not crazy), and we know the rangers off them every once in a while. Given that Santuariel must be the only source of half-elfs, the conclusion follows that they kick them out when they become dangerous. So yeah, the elves might kill them, but the half-elfs don't do anything to clean up the mess they make and the ones that end up paying for the crazy they let roam around the world are the humans unlucky enough to fire them up.


We don't know that. Small sample size and all. What evidence is there that the homicidally psychotic Santuarielites aren't just locked up in an asylum somewhere in Santuariel?


Again, answered in the portion you quoted. Read the bolded part. They weren't mentioned while Ian was healing people, and he thought he could have healed his mother. It's a pretty big plot point, I doubt it would just be glossed over.
Kian
Forum Regular
 
Posts: 88
Joined: August 22nd, 2007, 4:55 pm

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Boss Out of Town » April 22nd, 2008, 9:52 am

DarkIntruder wrote:Well, I wouldn't say that Ian's father has no part to play in this. The fact that he isn't there means that something must have happened to him. The simplest explanation would be that he was human, and died. But there are many other possibilities. I think we might hear something about him in the future.

Ian told Meji that both his parents were half-elves. At that point in the story, it clarified why he wasn't nearly as screwed up as Meji was. Most likely, the guy is dead, and, most likely, he was killed by Elves.

Strictly speaking, it is almost certainly true that most of the population of Santurial has had family members killed by Elves. Just like most of the population of Poland has ancestors killed by Germans and Russian back in the forties. When the other side is that brutal, thorough, and/or genocidal, its pretty much a given.
User avatar
Boss Out of Town
Team Captain
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: August 20th, 2007, 8:49 pm
Location: Near where the Children of the Corn go to school

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby runic » April 22nd, 2008, 11:40 am

or ians father could have died from internal organ failure, seeing as how his daughter was sickly.

most people have issues with that kill or be killed thing but after you pull the trigger the first time it starts to get easier.

oh, and the people of santaurial are more likely to suffer illness than children from elf and human couplings, with such a small gene pool all the wacky recessive traits will come out to play over time.
runic
Errant Scholar
 
Posts: 249
Joined: September 4th, 2007, 3:26 pm

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby davester65 » April 22nd, 2008, 12:28 pm

Ian's Mom may not have been the only mentally ill Half-Elf in Santauriel. She might just be the only one we know about. We also don't know that Ian didn't heal any insane Half-Elves while there, we just didn't see him do it.
Also, even homicidal psychopaths may still have attachments to certain persons (close friends, family). So maybe the errant that Sarine killed way back in the beginning of the story used to live in Santauriel, but left when he ran out of neighborhood pets to mutilate, because he didn't want to hurt anyone he had feelings for. Who knows, maybe he was Ian's father.
User avatar
davester65
Mage/Priest War Veteran
 
Posts: 463
Joined: January 7th, 2008, 6:11 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby mindstalk » April 22nd, 2008, 1:56 pm

half-elf sources: there could be other secret communities no one knows about. Also, rangers and other ambassadors might still play around with humans. Anita snarked about how elves hunted half-elves with nearly as much enthusiasm as they had for making more half-elves, suggesting she either has a long view of history or elves are still screwing the monkeys. Besides Rarune. And Sarine.

Meji did tell Ian that "she's not that bad" about Sarine, when he abducted Meji, and as others have noted has currently just focused on Jon, rather than acknowledging Meji's mention of Sarine or asking "who's Sarine?"

As for what he could be doing right now... it's like Emerylon again. What's his goal? "rescuing" Jon? He could demand Jon be brought to him and at least try talking; instead he's choosing to walk through a unknown and hostile city, the integrity of which he just damaged, so far killing whoever he meets along the way.
User avatar
mindstalk
Typo-Seeking Missile
 
Posts: 914
Joined: November 9th, 2007, 10:05 am

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby DarkIntruder » April 22nd, 2008, 2:00 pm

davester65 wrote:Ian's Mom may not have been the only mentally ill Half-Elf in Santauriel. She might just be the only one we know about. We also don't know that Ian didn't heal any insane Half-Elves while there, we just didn't see him do it.
Also, even homicidal psychopaths may still have attachments to certain persons (close friends, family). So maybe the errant that Sarine killed way back in the beginning of the story used to live in Santauriel, but left when he ran out of neighborhood pets to mutilate, because he didn't want to hurt anyone he had feelings for. Who knows, maybe he was Ian's father.


Ian's parent's both Errants? ......
.
.
Nahhhhh! ;)
User avatar
DarkIntruder
Mage/Priest War Veteran
 
Posts: 433
Joined: August 29th, 2007, 8:29 am
Location: Frigid wastes of Southern Ontario

Re: Yeah, I'm okay wit dat ...

Postby Forrest » April 22nd, 2008, 2:21 pm

mindstalk wrote:He could demand Jon be brought to him and at least try talking; instead he's choosing to walk through a unknown and hostile city, the integrity of which he just damaged, so far killing whoever he meets along the way.

Telegraphing what you're after might just make the enemy guard it all the more securely... or even hold it hostage, if it's something of intrinsic value to you and only instrumental value (as a bargaining chip with you) to them.
User avatar
Forrest
Finally, some love for the BJ!
 
Posts: 941
Joined: August 21st, 2007, 12:49 pm
Location: The Edge of the Earth

PreviousNext

Return to Errant Story

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron